How and why do the MB boards carve?

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Re: How and why do the MB boards carve?

Post by Bouke/Witchcraft » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:00 pm

rod wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:42 am
I would like to try a Reaper but I like the narrow width of the Super mini (the fanatic stubby and Cortez simmer share this). And the tucked soft rails that give a super smooth ride.

I tried about 6 100L shapes before I worked out this was what was so good about the (large) stubbies.

I think trying other types of boards is so important. Have you tried a Simmer Cortez, Super Mini or MB board?
Never seen a Cortez or MB in the flesh. I tried a stubbie over on Tenerife a few years ago. As far as I know the shape has not changed. I tried a Killerfish which was very very similar to a SM. According to the shaper he said he was struggling to find a difference measuring both. Now the latest KF are different, the tail at least. There is a guy here who has both a SM and a Pyramid (83 and 78 IIRC). I reckon he is between 70 and 75kg. I have seen him on the SM at Glass beach tripping/loosing the rail at times but he is not such a good sailor. I can´t recall seeing him out on the Pyramid. I adjusted some Witchcraft fins for him.

For sure the Reaper is a lot more fun in smaller waves but not as good in bigger waves. It is really made to make very mediocre or even B&J conditions exciting. For bigger conditions I have the Haka ST which is narrower.

An example of a board which used a more taper but with a fairly flat (tail) rocker is the Mistral twinser from 10-12 years ago. I remade some of them to trifin or quad (the conversion to quad was lots cheaper) to give it more grip but that shape was quite nice and allround.
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Re: How and why do the MB boards carve?

Post by rod » Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:06 pm

One of the amazing things about the stubby designs is how they hide their volume in small plan shapes. Both the super mini and Cortez do this really well. And as a consequence have a massive wind range (I used the Cortez 99 with a 4.2 and it felt fine).

I wouldn't really have realised this without trying them. (both are quite different in other respects).

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Re: How and why do the MB boards carve?

Post by Bouke/Witchcraft » Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:44 pm

rod wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:06 pm
One of the amazing things about the stubby designs is how they hide their volume in small plan shapes. Both the super mini and Cortez do this really well. And as a consequence have a massive wind range (I used the Cortez 99 with a 4.2 and it felt fine).

I wouldn't really have realised this without trying them. (both are quite different in other respects).
The thing is, do they hide their volume as well when it´s needed? I have one customer from Galicia who has an 2013 81 L Witchcraft Wave V3 with 570 width and he got himself a Goya Quad 89 2018 (he gets a sponsor deal from the local shop on them) with 563 width for lighter winds and he had put on some weight and he said the Goya felt smaller, both off the plane and to get planing and was less stable to schlog on. In spite of having 8L more volume. So the Goya also "managed" to hide it´s volume, but also when it was needed. I made him a new Witchcraft Haka ST 85 with 58 width to replace both. It is easy to "hide" volume, or better said to make it feel smaller by comparing volumes, by making a board small and thick. But in the end it will sail like a smaller board, also when conditions are light so you´ve gained nothing and the thicker board actually has less control being thicker. Even in sub planing conditions, I reckon you get 70-90% of the "float" from dynamic lift and 10 to 30% of the actual volume. Volume only actually gives lift when under water. Which usually only is when uphauling. When there is enough wind to water start, you can sail a board with less volume than your weight, even in sub planing conditions as long as it´s not too narrow.

Just had a session at Punta Blanca with Will and he brought his V5 instead of the Reaper, saying that as soon as there is enough wind he prefers the V5 even in on shore as he can turn the narrow tail a lot better at speed. You have max width which is what you feel most in a bottom turn or when schlogging but also tail width, which is what you feel most in a top turn. A narrow board with a wide tail is harder to make a good top turn with. Plus the stability when schlogging is less.

I have a customer in Norway with a Reaper 114 and he said he has used that with 6.7 to 4.2. He said they have a bay where when it is dead on shore you can jump on both tacks and on a windy day he put a 4.2 on his Reaper to get good projection and it worked fine. He is the Ezzy importer in Norway (or up until recently).
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Re: How and why do the MB boards carve?

Post by rod » Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:36 pm

Don't know about the Goya quad 89, (which isn't a stubby design anyway) but the super mini and Cortez do both hide their volume and have it when you need it.

The wide tails are particularly effective for slogging as they support your weight behind the mast foot. They are really good at getting over whitewater underpowered too as the suck back from the wave doesn't sink the board.

Then the narrow width (relatively) helps the board feel small, controllable and throw about when it is windy. Unlike any other 100+ L boards I tried (Goya One 105, Simmer quantum 105, wc custom 101, qoya quad 106) all feel like aircraft carriers.

Frankly I don't want to have to have a 63+cm wide board just because I am a bit heavier than average!

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Re: How and why do the MB boards carve?

Post by Ruaraidh_K257 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:21 am

Can anybody explain how to insert a photo from your camera roll to the forum?

Balz very kindly gave me a diagram explaining how it carved.

Also, @Bouke, the Stubby shape seems to turn pretty well. Victor tends to only use his for very marginal conditions but Adam on the other hand barely uses his Grips... in down the line Hookipa, lighter Pozo, Tiree, Medano and at his home in Gwithian he mainly uses the stubby, often in conditions far outside of their intended uses. His turns at these places are full of style and flowing power, and he’s riding production shapes up until his biggest board, a 99l for ultra light float and ride which has tons of rocker. These boards seem to offer so much more range than a regular waveboard...
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Re: How and why do the MB boards carve?

Post by Bouke/Witchcraft » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:53 am

Rod, your SM is not that square, which is good in my opinion. Then if you take your SM and then make it 1cm wider in the max width and 1cm less in the OFO tail, everything else staying the same, that board will plane a touch earlier, feel more stable when schlogging and react quicker to foot steering. Control in a bottom turn will be slightly less, in the top turn better. Straightline control at speed will be better. You´d need to move around a bit more, like stepping 1-2cm more forward when schlogging or getting over white water to keep it at the same level. Maybe the bottom turn is more important to you, that can be. For most people it´s both. There is no magic, it is all physics. If you have a wider board, everything else staying the same, it is going to feel bigger, plane earlier and lose control. So getting the right width is essential, which is a combination of max width and tail width, both count. If you put more weight on the bottom turn, it´s the max width which is more important, and as said, for the top turn tail width. It would be very hard to to this with a wide tail:
Image
A couple of liters is hardly making a difference as the guy with the Goya found out as well. Big Pieter here who rides Witchcraft boards is 95-97kg and used to ride a 91L, which he also used for schlogging. Now he has a 96L which he can use when it´s super light. It has a touch wider max width and rocker.
IMG_1375.jpg
IMG_1375.jpg (126.4 KiB) Viewed 15 times

I only know one guy here who uses a SM, it seems to work best in Punta Blanca, in side shore he seems to have problems, no other stubbies to be seen. Sometimes a tourist but none that even remotely did something that looked nice. Some people sure have tried them. I only tried one in Tenerife with very small waves.
Last edited by Bouke/Witchcraft on Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How and why do the MB boards carve?

Post by Ruaraidh_K257 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:06 am

Bouke are you basing your dislike of Stubbies off theory, and only seeing amateur sailors use them at your home break? Even if you sold the absolute best wave board in the world to a rubbish wavesailor, you wouldn’t get amazing results. Adam rips on his production stubby, and it doesn’t look like it’s holding him back at all...
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Re: How and why do the MB boards carve?

Post by Bouke/Witchcraft » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:14 am

Ruaraidh_K257 wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:21 am
a 99l for ultra light float and ride which has tons of rocker. These boards seem to offer so much more range than a regular waveboard...
That is contradictive as rocker greatly reduces wind range. So if that 99 has tons of rocker, it will be a dog to get planing. Which is fine if you just use it for float n ride but that greatly limits it´s use and range. Most people would want their big board to get planing earlier.
Like the old Evos which were a kind of pre decessors for the Stubbies being quite paralel with a wide tail and tail kick. They needed quite a lot of power to get planing, in spite of the wide tail. The tail rocker would just suck it down.

As for Balz diagram, I can imagine what it looks like and then I would like to see them jibing one or even better on a wave. Some 15 years ago we made an Astro Rock Stubbie by cutting the tail and nose of an Astro Rock and move the straps and boxes. This was to make it fit in a van to teach someones girlfriend to windsurf on but we took it out for fun on a light small day at Glass beach. We managed to make some turns on it but it was very hard. Freestyle went quite OK though.
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Re: How and why do the MB boards carve?

Post by Bouke/Witchcraft » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:23 am

Ruaraidh_K257 wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:06 am
Bouke are you basing your dislike of Stubbies off theory, and only seeing amateur sailors use them at your home break? Even if you sold the absolute best wave board in the world to a rubbish wavesailor, you wouldn’t get amazing results. Adam rips on his production stubby, and it doesn’t look like it’s holding him back at all...
I know of various excellent sailors who tried them, also some of my own teamriders who have world cup level. Also I guess most or all pros would have tried them by now and use them if they wanted to. Though I don´t think it will be unthinkable that a marketing manager decides that one guy has to ride more this type of board and another guy another type of board.
You could also say some riders could ride a door and make it look good. I have seen Yannick Anton (58kg) take out a Shaman 115 with 673 width and make aerials with it. When ever he gets on a new board, he will need some time to figure it out but then make it work. But he can also tell me exactly how and why. And also it is important that an average amateur sailor can sail them and the board is not restricting. As that´s whom I make boards for. And I´ve seen a guy trying to ride waves but stalling half way though the bottom turn as the straps are too far back for him. An Adam Lewis will know how to lean forward just enough not to catch the rail. A more traditional shape has the straps more forward and the rounder outline stops the front rail from catching.
Last edited by Bouke/Witchcraft on Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How and why do the MB boards carve?

Post by PhilN » Mon Jul 15, 2019 9:39 am

Ruaraidh_K257 wrote:
Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:21 am
Can anybody explain how to insert a photo from your camera roll to the forum?

Click on the attachments tab then the 'add files' which then appears.
zzzzzzzz.jpg
zzzzzzzz.jpg (253.36 KiB) Viewed 19 times


Anyone mentioned toe-in yet in the design of these boards *runs for cover*

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