All round boards and marketing blurb

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Bouke/Witchcraft
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All round boards and marketing blurb

Post by Bouke/Witchcraft » Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:59 pm

We are deviating a lot from Ola´s thread, I guess thats how discussions go sometimes but I thought it better to start a new thread.
PK1111 wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:50 pm
Bouke/Witchcraft wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:02 pm
PK1111 wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:33 pm
Bouke, I respect your position as a custom board manufacturer, and ability to build to a clients request, but the main brands can’t do that.
It seems like your view of what we do is limited. I am also a "professional", shaping boards since 1985, since 1994 professionally on Fuerteventura, windsurfing since 40 years.
Considering I have been a past customer of yours, I would suggest that I absolutely understand what you do and how you operate. I’ve admired many aspects of your operation over the years and am especially supportive of small batch, high quality manufacturing close to the consumer market.

Initially you argued that there was no such thing as “all round” but your own web site clearly states otherwise.
Your posts are just coming across as defensive of your model, rather than sticking to the topic, and discussing how relevant these more radical designs (and maybe yours) are to regular riders and conditions.

I’m pressing this as Simmer do have recent form in producing very dedicated models, especially the Fly, which changed dramatically between the years, to the point where some years are considered good, and some, dogs that should be avoided.
I don’t know who the shapers were and cast no aspersions, preferring to have a straight conversation about the potential future.

These designs may be exciting and have a wide potential market.
I encourage that experimentation.
But specialist boards should be clearly identified as such and not marketed as all round boards.
I absolutely agree and we try to do that as much as possible but it also depends a lot on where someone is coming from. It´s not good promotion to have someone on the wrong board. All I can do on the website is to indicate what the differences between the boards are for which we use performance bars. The Haka ST is not marked as an all round board but as an all round WAVEboard, suitable for both jumping and riding. For example it also says this; In comparison to the Haka ST, the Shaman is less technical to sail, planes earlier and keeps speed better. The Haka ST is the more radical version of the Shaman: turnier, faster and jumps better.
So I would say it is pretty clear you need decent skills, it´s not a freewave. But with the right skills, it certainly is a fast board, going up wind well.
And the performance bars indicate how it relates to the other ranges. The new Wave V5 has been marked as having more rocker. Not a lot more but it is noticable. The Reaper is marked as a Wild Horse, for making the lamest conditions exiting. So either you have the skills to handle a wild horse or you step up your game.
Then when someone has doubts, I can explain more in detail in relation to boards he/she knows.
https://witchcraft.nu/. Boards, sails, masts, fins.

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Re: All round boards and marketing blurb

Post by TOTD » Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:54 pm

Given the resources of the main brands, I ain’t picking them, they certainly have the ability to make the board, they however make the board they think will sell, and sometimes it sails well.

Bouke could very easily have sold me a wave board, but instead advised to wait till the FSW was developed. Home run.

As far as a custom goes, you must be honest with the shaper, who in turn must read comments and ability, locale etc.
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Re: All round boards and marketing blurb

Post by PK1111 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:45 am

Bouke, I think you do a great job on your web site, and wish other brands would provide something similar.
I think this issue is especially common with the hard core wave board market, which typically means quad fins in smaller sizes.
These boards are used in all types of conditions by very different standards of riders, so maybe the toughest to get right?

Let’s look at a few examples.
The JP Ultimate Wave, generally acknowledged as being very Wave orientated and needing a lot of power to perform well. You would not know that from the web site: http://jp-australia.com/2019/products/b ... mate-wave/

Fanatic do a slightly better job with the Grip, comparing to the Stubby: https://www.fanatic.com/product/grip-te/

Starboards UltraKode looks great on the website, but mostly marketing fluff with little real info: https://windsurf.star-board.com/products/ultrakode/

Could you use any of that to know if it’s going to fit your needs, or are we still going to have to make expensive commitments and potentially mistakes.

As always, good shops will be able to guide you, especially if they ride the gear themselves.
The best shops offer demos and try before you buy.
Magazine reports are becoming harder to decipher, maybe in fear of annoying their advertisers and could be greatly improved.

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Re: All round boards and marketing blurb

Post by TOTD » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:00 pm

Odd you use Quads as an example, Witchy make trifin’s mostly.

The stuff coming out of the factories is marketing hype, some anyway. The board tests we used to get, did some to help, reading between the lines...

I haven’t gotten a new as in brandy new board for quite some time, but seriously doubt I would consider the mainstream products, maybe a Simmer .
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Re: All round boards and marketing blurb

Post by PK1111 » Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:34 pm

TOTD wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:00 pm
Odd you use Quads as an example, Witchy make trifin’s mostly.
“typically”

As in, that’s what I see a lot of at “hard core” wave sailing locations.
Of course you will see lots of other fin arrangements, even the odd single fin which can be disconcerting given the extreme proficiency of some riders, not so many twins (mainly old versions) and of course a lot of tri fins but mainly on free waves / stubbies.

Being a surfer, I instinctively think 3 is the right number, but it’s just one design detail of many!

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Re: All round boards and marketing blurb

Post by Bouke/Witchcraft » Tue Apr 23, 2019 2:39 pm

PK1111 wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:34 pm
TOTD wrote:
Mon Apr 22, 2019 3:00 pm
Odd you use Quads as an example, Witchy make trifin’s mostly.
“typically”

As in, that’s what I see a lot of at “hard core” wave sailing locations.
Of course you will see lots of other fin arrangements, even the odd single fin which can be disconcerting given the extreme proficiency of some riders, not so many twins (mainly old versions) and of course a lot of tri fins but mainly on free waves / stubbies.

Being a surfer, I instinctively think 3 is the right number, but it’s just one design detail of many!
Not sure but sometimes I think that some people over-estimate themselves and get a too radical wave board, even if they are not that good wave sailors and/or do not have the conditions for it. Recently I had a customer of 82kg who had ordered a Wave V4 89 2 years ago with a shop in Holland (I was not involved) because he wanted to go wave riding more. He now moved here and said he keeps struggling getting planing and up wind, which he did not have before with his Tabou Pocket. He showed me a video of himself where you could see he was standing far too much on his back foot. So I said to go and try the Shaman 92 and he loved that. He even said it turned better. Which is not really true off course but for him it is true as the board does not stall. He said he thought of him as an experienced sailor but now realised wave sailing is still another level. I have had other cases like that but not where people have asked for advice.
Also here with the rental equipment people tend to ask for smaller equipment then whats good for them. I always say, better run the risk of being on slightly oversized kit if it does get windier than forecasted then running the risk of not being able to go out if the wind does not materialise as much. Maybe locals can simply wait till it gets good enough and work when not but when you are on holiday you want to get out as much as possible.
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Re: All round boards and marketing blurb

Post by gasppol » Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:22 pm

Quite interesting thread.
I'm myself a wanna be wave-rider, coming from FSW background. Feel tempted to go for a "full-wave" board on the 80-ish liters.
Based on the websites and the Windsurf.UK reviews (the German site review maybe is better) is very difficult for a noob like me to choose.
In my spot, the only four brands are Fanatic, JP, Starboard and Goya/Quattro. All of them have FSWs, Radical-Wave and a "stubby" or wavy-fsw on the catalog (notably Quattro has so many options!).
Two years ago I add to my quiver (94lts FSW) a 80lts Starboard UltraKode for my overseas trips wanting to become a rookie wave-rider. I do it "in the dark" because the info was so little and irrelevant. I, as PK1111, love the versatile all-around boards. That board that do everything easy and just fine, but nothing exceptionally great. I felt the UltaKode was good, but I have nothing to compare it.
Now the board it is almost completely delaminated (another thread for that), and I have to choose again.

So, what are the key elements to find such a board? It is the "stubby" o wavy-fsw board that kind of plug and play board (Starboar AIR, Fanatic Stubby, JP Slate, Quattro Super Mini) or that are just de-tunned wave boards? I felt very identified with the Bouke history of a guy loving the not so radical wave board after frustrating sessions with the radical one.
Which of the main commercial pure wave boards is the most plug and play (JP Ultimate, Fanatic Grip, SB UltraKode, Goya Custom, Quattro Qube/Pyramid)?? Also.. soon the 2020 models will be available, with all the fuss about bein the 'snappier, faster, turnier, etc...'

Any insight very much appreciated.

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Re: All round boards and marketing blurb

Post by Ruaraidh_K257 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 4:27 pm

gasppol wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:22 pm

Which of the main commercial pure wave boards is the most plug and play (JP Ultimate, Fanatic Grip, SB UltraKode, Goya Custom, Quattro Qube/Pyramid)?? Also.. soon the 2020 models will be available, with all the fuss about bein the 'snappier, faster, turnier, etc...'

Any insight very much appreciated.
Plug and play wise, the Grip will probably give you the best results. It’s wavy but fast enough that it works very well in marginal conditions. The Kode is more oriented to the marginal days, the Goya, Quatro Pyramid and the JP are superb but once you get into really marginal conditions they won’t work so well. If you have a mix of epic and crap conditions the JP is your best option. If you sail any quality of waves with strong winds, Goya and Quatro are your best bet. But if you want to have something that covers all the bases, the Grip followed closely by the JP are your best bets. If you like a more settled feel when powered up, choose the JP, but if you don’t mind a bit of bumpiness to your ride when it’s windy, the Fanatic will do just fine! Both of them are extremely versatile boards, which with some fin change a you can make them suit just about anything! The Simmers are also supposed to be very very versatile but I don’t have enough experience of them to say reliably whether they’re good or not! Speak to Ola about that.
16, Scottish wavesailor, sponsored by - Neil Pryde, JP Australia, K4Fins, Wild Diamond Tiree

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Re: All round boards and marketing blurb

Post by PK1111 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:55 pm

Gasppol, you don’t give any info about your fitness, skills, weight or typical conditions so hard to give anything other than general guidance, which you should treat with great caution!

If you want a quick, snappy, skaty feel, especially in lower winds and smaller waves, then stubbies are a lot of fun, but they require a change of stance and style to get the best out of. I also find they aren’t much fun when it gets really windy and rough.

If you want a bit more high end control, then the Fanatic Grip and Goya Customs are really easy to get on with and rarely disappoint.
I’ve never gotten on with the Quatro’s, finding the Qube a bit sedate and the Pyramid a bit too hard core. I do know some riders on them, more the Pyramid, but they are all very good sailors.
Jp ultimate is quite a hard core design and I rarely see unless under a real hot shot.
Not really seen a starboard in use unless by a pro so can’t comment.

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Re: All round boards and marketing blurb

Post by Ruaraidh_K257 » Wed Apr 24, 2019 8:50 pm

PK1111 wrote:
Wed Apr 24, 2019 6:55 pm
Gasppol, you don’t give any info about your fitness, skills, weight or typical conditions so hard to give anything other than general guidance, which you should treat with great caution!

If you want a quick, snappy, skaty feel, especially in lower winds and smaller waves, then stubbies are a lot of fun, but they require a change of stance and style to get the best out of. I also find they aren’t much fun when it gets really windy and rough.

If you want a bit more high end control, then the Fanatic Grip and Goya Customs are really easy to get on with and rarely disappoint.
I’ve never gotten on with the Quatro’s, finding the Qube a bit sedate and the Pyramid a bit too hard core. I do know some riders on them, more the Pyramid, but they are all very good sailors.
Jp ultimate is quite a hard core design and I rarely see unless under a real hot shot.
Not really seen a starboard in use unless by a pro so can’t comment.
The JP is a very hardcore looking board and I was tentative about getting mine as I sail mostly in 4.7-4.0 cross onshore conditions where speed on the wave is key. The marketing blurb says it combines the speed of the Thruster Quad and the turning ability of the Radical Thruster Quad, but I expected it to be a compromise. However, it is super fast, and turns extremely well. The trick is to take a slightly bigger size and it feels like a much smaller size but planes like it’s bigger! It has a very settled, controlled feel but goes super fast. Even when I’m ridiculously overpowered it never bounces around, and when I’m underpowered it seems very good at keeping speed continuously, rather than dropping on and off the plane like a lot of more radical boards do. The guys at JP have spent the past five or so years working on this board and it seems to have payed off. It’s not for everyone and I don’t expect everyone to be as happy with it as I am, but make sure you try it as it really doesn’t sail like you’d think it would!!
16, Scottish wavesailor, sponsored by - Neil Pryde, JP Australia, K4Fins, Wild Diamond Tiree

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