Mast, mast, mast!

Windsurf equipment based chatter should be in here.
TOTD
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Re: Mast, mast, mast!

Post by TOTD » Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:56 pm

This is good analogy by a premier sail maker.

Think of mast stiffness like the skeleton in an animal. The bigger the animal, the stiffer the bones must be. To take an extreme example, you can rig a 460 in a 3.7 sail, but it would be like a cat having the bones of a horse. Or, you can rig a 370 in a 5.5, but that would be like the horse having the bones of a cat. The mast must get shorter as the sails go down in size. A shorter mast is more flexible than a longer mast. Some sail companies state that they have one mast that fits all sizes, but in reality, that mast would be optimal in a few sizes, and not great in the others.
If a mast is too stiff, the sail will require more downhaul. This will move the draft further back and decrease the forward drive, while at the same time making the sail feel twitchy and slightly draft back.
If the mast is too soft, the sail will require too little downhaul, making the sail less stable.
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Pad IoW
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Re: Mast, mast, mast!

Post by Pad IoW » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:27 am

TOTD wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:37 pm
The sails come in sizes to suit a weight, which suits a size board, which suits a wind force, which is a dynamic it changes.
....
Not true really. Take a 5.2, rigged on a 4m mast, a 65kg sailor sail nicely powered. The sail, mast combo make the sail a certain shape. The wind increases, & a 95kg sailor borrows the rig, & finds he is nicely powered. However the rig will be a different shape as it is loaded by an extra 20 kg. It still works tho. To get the rig to match the lighter sailor, the heavier sailor would have to swap for a stiffer 4m mast.

Our 5.2 m sail is designed to work with various wing loadings, which I guess isn't a bad thing, (but is a compromise) but it could be designs for a specific loading, which you could alter with a softer, stiffer mast.

Pad IoW
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Re: Mast, mast, mast!

Post by Pad IoW » Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:29 am

Richarli wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:38 pm
Might be an idea to email Matthew at 5 Oceans and ask him about making you a custom set to suit one mast. It'll probably be cheaper as well.
Is probably the answer.

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Gorgesailor
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Re: Mast, mast, mast!

Post by Gorgesailor » Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:53 pm

Pad IoW wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:27 am
TOTD wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:37 pm
The sails come in sizes to suit a weight, which suits a size board, which suits a wind force, which is a dynamic it changes.
....
Not true really. Take a 5.2, rigged on a 4m mast, a 65kg sailor sail nicely powered. The sail, mast combo make the sail a certain shape. The wind increases, & a 95kg sailor borrows the rig, & finds he is nicely powered. However the rig will be a different shape as it is loaded by an extra 20 kg. It still works tho. To get the rig to match the lighter sailor, the heavier sailor would have to swap for a stiffer 4m mast.

Our 5.2 m sail is designed to work with various wing loadings, which I guess isn't a bad thing, (but is a compromise) but it could be designs for a specific loading, which you could alter with a softer, stiffer mast.
....so you are actually advocating for increased complexity rather than simplicity? ... now we need not only mast of different sizes, with different bend curve shapes, but also different stiffness for the same size/curve. Brilliant!

Pad IoW
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Re: Mast, mast, mast!

Post by Pad IoW » Mon Sep 16, 2019 7:16 pm

Gorgesailor wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 5:53 pm
Pad IoW wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:27 am
TOTD wrote:
Fri Sep 13, 2019 3:37 pm
The sails come in sizes to suit a weight, which suits a size board, which suits a wind force, which is a dynamic it changes.
....
Not true really. Take a 5.2, rigged on a 4m mast, a 65kg sailor sail nicely powered. The sail, mast combo make the sail a certain shape. The wind increases, & a 95kg sailor borrows the rig, & finds he is nicely powered. However the rig will be a different shape as it is loaded by an extra 20 kg. It still works tho. To get the rig to match the lighter sailor, the heavier sailor would have to swap for a stiffer 4m mast.

Our 5.2 m sail is designed to work with various wing loadings, which I guess isn't a bad thing, (but is a compromise) but it could be designs for a specific loading, which you could alter with a softer, stiffer mast.
....so you are actually advocating for increased complexity rather than simplicity? ... now we need not only mast of different sizes, with different bend curve shapes, but also different stiffness for the same size/curve. Brilliant!
Yes, I had noticed this "Thinking about it my solution might make life even more complex."

More complex for the designers maybe, but I could have one mast, 3 sails! Actually maybe only 2 sails, as being more weight specific they would have a wider range, so I would only need 2.

Rod makes the point else where, that larger, & smaller sailors need wave board solutions based on their weight, & not just about volume. Maybe rigs can be thought out in the same way.

Still. mad ramblings while I wait for the next windy day!

yolen
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Re: Mast, mast, mast!

Post by yolen » Mon Sep 16, 2019 9:00 pm

Ga iq 5.0 and smaller all rig on 370

TOTD
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Re: Mast, mast, mast!

Post by TOTD » Tue Sep 17, 2019 2:20 pm

Very few would have a quiver starting at 5.0 and down.

Custom sails to suit would be peachy. The OP has a monetary dispersal issue. How can he then afford customs.

Sails are complicated enough, without a series performing on one mast.
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TOTD
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Re: Mast, mast, mast!

Post by TOTD » Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:03 pm

Mast stiffness vs. sailor’s weight:
Some people think a heavier person should use a stiffer mast and a lighter person a softer mast. This is kind of true and kind of not true. The mast stiffness must be matched to the sail size, not the person’s weight. So generally, a heavier person is using a bigger sail, so they will be on a longer and stiffer mast.
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Gorgesailor
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Re: Mast, mast, mast!

Post by Gorgesailor » Thu Sep 19, 2019 7:16 pm

TOTD wrote:
Thu Sep 19, 2019 2:03 pm
Mast stiffness vs. sailor’s weight:
Some people think a heavier person should use a stiffer mast and a lighter person a softer mast. This is kind of true and kind of not true. The mast stiffness must be matched to the sail size, not the person’s weight. So generally, a heavier person is using a bigger sail, so they will be on a longer and stiffer mast.
This is not quite true either. For example, if the heavier person is sailing a 5.0 in 25knot wind while the lighter person is sailing it in 15knots(extreme example) the heavier person is putting a greater load on the mast than the light person. So PadIoW is right in that way. Thing is the mast curve, & load distribution of sails of different size is & should be different so stick the same mast in a 5.0 & 4.0 is possible but not necessarily a good thing.

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Re: Mast, mast, mast!

Post by Farnorthsurfer » Thu Sep 19, 2019 8:19 pm

A hugely complicated subject which can easily disappear down a rabbit hole. Personally I am not that good a sailor so value consistency over complexity. Sticking to the same sail maker and mast manufacturer on the whole I think gives me that consistency in feel and performance. Quite happy to acknowledge that another sailor will get more speed/performance out of perfect matched technical kit. Like slalom guys matching masts to sails for ultimate performance. But I can’t afford it and it’s diminishing returns in time on the water. :)

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