How and why do the MB boards carve?

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JB:)
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Re: How and why do the MB boards carve?

Post by JB:) » Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:38 pm

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For me there is:

Speed

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Trim

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Barrel Hunting

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La la

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Heritage

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Sustainability

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If you cannot see surfing as anything other than top to bottom turns...

Well, that's your loss.

I Still completely disagree we have nothing to learn from other sports. I personally think that is short sighted navel gazing that can lead to stagnation.

Ola H.
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Re: How and why do the MB boards carve?

Post by Ola H. » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:22 pm

JB:) wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:35 am

Ola,

I actually completely disagree with this....
Very good point JB. I actually had alias in the back of my mind when writing but decided to leave this eventuality out. I should have said that snowboards have no relevance to surfing _unless_ we start to make surfboards that flex. Water is not snow though and I doubt going down the flex route will ever become mainstream. There is a reason that even for soft snow, skis and snowboards are relying _less_ on flex and more on rocker (that works like flex already built into the board/ski) and hence also less on sidecut and more on "positive curvature" shapes.

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Re: How and why do the MB boards carve?

Post by Ola H. » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:37 pm

Bouke/Witchcraft wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:27 am
Ola H. wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:55 am
But stubbies are not all the same.
Of course. That is why I was referring to the most extreme (square) versions. I think most brands figured it was too extreme and made their version more moderate and JP also quickly reduced their design. Also your Frugal had more taper and curvature. Maybe a touch too much rocker, like my first proto did as well. That was really surfy in medium sized fairly steep waves, perfect for Puerto Lajas or Glass Beach with enough wind but lacked range, both in wave size as well as wind range.
I don't see the Frugal and the faster Freegal as stubbies. They have short ("cut off") tails and short noses but are in other respects normal boards, and actually have more outline curvature (except in the rear part), overall more curvature than modern standard length boards. The Cortex by comparison, have less overall outline curvature than modern standard length boards. I keep developing the high rocker/high outline curvature style of boards (mostly for myself, but you never know when knowledge about how to make such boards becomes handy again). I'm finishing a new one right now. But for more "public" boards, I'm rather taking what I learned from stubbies into the development of fish style boards which have drawn in noses, wide points pretty far forward but share the rather low curvature rear part of the outline (but with more taper). For this I'm also drawing on inspiration from surf fishes and twins.

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Re: How and why do the MB boards carve?

Post by Bouke/Witchcraft » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:55 pm

JB:) wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:38 pm
If you cannot see surfing as anything other than top to bottom turns...

Well, that's your loss.

I Still completely disagree we have nothing to learn from other sports. I personally think that is short sighted navel gazing that can lead to stagnation.
Well often you will have waves that require turning, also in surfing. Most wave don´t peel perfectly down the line. I think having a board that mainly goes fast DTL is limiting yourself and your loss. If you like to go fast you should get yourself a foil surfboard, goes much faster even in sloppy waves and chop does not matter.

We can look at other sports but have to be carefull what is useful and what isn´t. Surfing is the most similar sport. Snowboarding hardly.
I have been thinking a lot how to make a windsurf board flex, for example to make it like a snowboard and do the deck with softfoam to get the volume but it will work out far too heavy and quite likely the foam may not last very long. Also it may be hard to control the flex so it actually flexes and not twists. Or make a windsurf board simply lots thinner. Which also will have issues. Also making more cuts like on my flex tail more forward will start being very risky and heavier. I did it on a SUP, that was OK. When I am 99.9% sure it will be a failure or not an improvement, I am not going to invest the time and money. But that does not mean I don´t keep it in the back of my head.

Being desperate for something new to boost sales usually is not the right motivation. Years ago JP was quite succesful with their wave boards with a channel bottom. Not that these channels really made much difference but JP marketed it that way. The marketing manager of another brand was jealous and told their famous shaper to make something like this without being a direct copy and he made the channels de opposite way, so like a beam in the middle. I know their teamrider well and he said the boards were no good, also the shaper didn´t like it either but that was what he was told to do by his boss.
And surely at the current state of the market, quite a lot of marketing managers are under a lot of pressure.
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Re: How and why do the MB boards carve?

Post by Bouke/Witchcraft » Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:57 pm

Ola H. wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:37 pm
I don't see the Frugal and the faster Freegal as stubbies.
No, that is why I call less square boards "compact".
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Re: How and why do the MB boards carve?

Post by JB:) » Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:49 pm

Bouke/Witchcraft wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 3:55 pm
Well often you will have waves that require turning, also in surfing. Most wave don´t peel perfectly down the line. I think having a board that mainly goes fast DTL is limiting yourself and your loss.
I am not disagreeing with this meerly trying to say that just because other people enjoy different aspects of a sport doesn't make them wrong.

Some of the most fun I have had in recent years on waves has been holding trim and making it past sections. Its a lovely feeling, almost relaxing. This is very different to thrashing about to make spray.

It is possible to do a decent top turn on an alaia, but I am not good enough for it:

Image

I tried a 'soft foam' flex board using 30kgm3 PE foam (same as used in boogie boards) with a snowboard style base (from one of my larger composite alaias) with a view to make a floaty alaia as paddling and wave catching is bloody difficult with a standard plank. But the PE didn't bond well with anything and it all fell to bits after one tumble. Afterwards, I tried heat welding, but just made a mess of everything involved. Experiment failed. But I could see how it could be put together if you had the resources:


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Re: How and why do the MB boards carve?

Post by rod » Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:32 pm

Have to say that despite Ola’s comments I found the Cortez and Super mini very easy to adjust turns as I was turning. They both do feel stable too (as Ola says). I like this about them a lot.

Witchcraft boards seem to have a very different turning pedigree (all the boards I’ve used anyway), where the turn is faster, but a bit harder to initiate and more locked in (but not in a bad way) despite much more ‘taper’ or a more rounded outline.

All the witchcraft boards I’ve sailed felt like this (v4 wave, chakra, my customs etc). I suspect this has more do with the fin / rail (very unique) / rocker set up rather than the outline.

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Re: How and why do the MB boards carve?

Post by Bouke/Witchcraft » Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:17 pm

JB:) wrote:
Wed Jul 17, 2019 7:49 pm
I am not disagreeing with this meerly trying to say that just because other people enjoy different aspects of a sport doesn't make them wrong.

Some of the most fun I have had in recent years on waves has been holding trim and making it past sections. Its a lovely feeling, almost relaxing. This is very different to thrashing about to make spray.

It is possible to do a decent top turn on an alaia, but I am not good enough for it:

I tried a 'soft foam' flex board using 30kgm3 PE foam (same as used in boogie boards) with a snowboard style base (from one of my larger composite alaias) with a view to make a floaty alaia as paddling and wave catching is bloody difficult with a standard plank. But the PE didn't bond well with anything and it all fell to bits after one tumble. Afterwards, I tried heat welding, but just made a mess of everything involved. Experiment failed. But I could see how it could be put together if you had the resources:
It is possible to go straight on a normal short board and easier than to make an Alaia turn. I think you will be able to find thousands of pictures where surfers go straight on a normal short board.

But then we get the difference to windsurf wave boards where simply going straight is by far not as much fun. Usually it is choppier and the sail will become a restriction. So having a board that turns easy is much better.

I´d say a surfboard could more or less be made with a snowboard underside and a soft deck to make it flex.
Last edited by Bouke/Witchcraft on Wed Jul 17, 2019 9:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How and why do the MB boards carve?

Post by Bouke/Witchcraft » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:50 pm

Here a few examples how I play with the 3 "ingredients".

I drew a blue line through the point on the rail at the back heel and through the point on the rail where the water line more or less is when planing in a straight line. The angle of this blue line to the centre line is the amount of taper. When the board is angled a little bit on the rail, the rail wants to move in the direction of the blue line but the fins want to go straight and the difference gives a turning impulse to enter the turn. As the board starts turning right away you can then straight away lean into the turn and the increased g-force you.create then helps to continue into the turn, getting more rail in the water and using more the rocker to get the nose to turn into the turn and the tail out, the bigger the difference, the tighter the turn. As you can see the differences are not big but still together with the other shaping details you can change the character a lot.
As I use fairly sharp rails, first this gives more taper but also the effect of angling the board a bit is more direct. Imagine an ice hockey skater on skates that have round edges. He is just going to slide side ways. Or a rally car on a dirt road, they drift more then making a tight turn. An F1 car always wants to have grip to turn tighter at high speeds, the g-forces are far higher than with rally cars. The sharper rails also give more planing area. With the same max width this can be 2-3cm difference in planing area but once the board is on the rail, you have the same width again. And it gives a cleaner release, less drag, earlier planing, better up wind. Sharp rail do make a board more senstive to chop so I will make them sharper or a bit rounder depending how choppy conditions the board may be expected to be used in. Still there are also other ways to make a board less sensitive.


Wave V5:
Less taper, narrower, more rocker, forward straps: This shape turns more on the rocker and has sharper rails: stable and smoother turn, excellent drive from the wave, less early planing. The rocker makes it more tecnical.
Taper Wave V5.jpg
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Reaper: short, rounder outline, more taper, flat rocker but with good nose rocker, straps back, medium round rails. Pretty early planing, fast and loose. Not a very stable longer bottom turn. Sensitive to weight placement. The short length and reactivity make it more tecnical than fx the Chakra or Shaman.
Taper Reaper.jpg
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Haka ST: Medium everything, medium round rails.
Taper Haka ST 85.jpg
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Last edited by Bouke/Witchcraft on Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: How and why do the MB boards carve?

Post by Bouke/Witchcraft » Wed Jul 17, 2019 11:55 pm

Chakra: medium taper, flat rocker, straps medium forward, medium round rails: Easy to sail. Does not need a whole lot of foot pressure to turn but will not turn very tight and keeps planing easily and is very forgiving.
Taper Chakra.jpg
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Wave V3: This version had more taper. medium high rocker, medium forward straps, sharper rails. Some people still preferred the V3 over the V4 due to being more reactive but the V4 is smoother.
Taper Wave V3.jpg
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Stubbie: Far less taper, rounder rails, medium low rocker, straps very far back:
Taper stubbie.jpg
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