SUP Foil surfing

Foiling related talk in here
Farnorthsurfer
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SUP Foil surfing

Post by Farnorthsurfer » Sun Aug 11, 2019 5:10 pm

Am I allowed to start a thread on SUP surf foiling?
Using the Starboard Hypernut 4-1 which is also used for windfoiling so I guess it’s sort of a sailboard :D

ronnie
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Re: SUP Foil surfing

Post by ronnie » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:08 am

There is a lot of cross transfer of information and knowledge about foiling from the different disciplines of foiling. Anyone buying a 4in1 windfoil may well be interested in using it for SUP foiling and knowing how it SUPfoils before buying it.

I have a JP 7'2" 103L 4in1 board, but have no interest in paddle SUPfoil - too much work and we don't get suitable waves where I live.

I am interested in SUPfoil with a wing, and have ordered a JP SUP Foil 7' by 28" 115 litre and a 4m Duotone wing. The 115 is not supposed to SUP or windSUP, but I have bought a pair of K4 Fins and will give that a try (I've windSUPed and SUPed the 103 with a 9" fin in the foil track). EDIT: I have windSUPed the 115 and it is doable, but it pushes water like an oil-tanker and has no performance. I'm initially going to use the wing when it is too windy to SUP the 115. It is not good at SUP - so not a 4in1.

UPDATE 14th Aug. The 115 with the fins is less stable than the 103! It rolls easily until a rail buries, then gives a chance to correct things, but you cannot lean on the rail. It may only be really stable with the foil attached. The 115 with the fins, paddles straight with enough effort - a bit like the 103 with the 9" fin in a track. I've now tried the 115 with fins and the wing, and it is going to work for slowly cruising in enough wind.
It does windfoil and I intend to use it with a sail until I get to the right level to start trying the wing with it. It needs a 5mm wedge to set the mast at 90 degrees to the rocker.

Some more windfoiling with the JP SUP 7'. Downwind and upwind 360s by Tyson Poor. Using the Wind fuselage and the Medium wing.


Foiling is many things. Maybe the 4in1 thread would cover all 4 aspects of those boards in 1 thread? Or maybe only when it has a sail attached? This thread could cover the other 2 aspects of 4in1 boards? (or 3 aspects if you include the wing).

Klass Voget using a 5m Duotone wing while waiting for more wind at the PWA Tenerife.
Last edited by ronnie on Thu Aug 29, 2019 8:35 am, edited 9 times in total.

Farnorthsurfer
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Re: SUP Foil surfing

Post by Farnorthsurfer » Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:50 pm

Very interested in how you find the wing when you get it?

Surfed Lossiemouth on Saturday with the 'Nut and Slingshot Infinity 84. Well when I say surfed..... Its much harder to paddle into waves with the anchor, sorry foil on the back and I guess the timing is all different to SUP surfing naturally. Only managed to get the foil planing on two occasions and both times failed to keep the front end down so was off even faster than I got up.
I think the right waves are important but that's fair to say of learning all waves disciplines. A good wave day can make anyone feel like a wave god.
TOW, much more TOW is needed to crack this one I think and like learning anything new it is really tiring.
Next time I am going to try and make more use of pumping the foil as well as paddling in to the wave as I think this will help an early take off.
I can windfoil the same combination so think I have a good start for when the foil gets up on the wave. Long term plan is to try and get to the point where I can take it downwind as I think there are good areas around here for that.

Well knackered but jumped on a friends Fanatic Allwave 9' and immediately scored some nice waves, hmmmm.

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Re: SUP Foil surfing

Post by Smidge » Wed Aug 14, 2019 11:52 am

Im interested in this too (also got a 4in1) - although I dont think I will ever actually foil sup it as just wave supping it will be a new experience for me (and was main reason i got it)

ronnie
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Re: SUP Foil surfing

Post by ronnie » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:20 pm

Farnorthsurfer wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 1:50 pm
Very interested in how you find the wing when you get it?
EDIT: the 4M wing has arrived and I tried it today (24th) on land in about 5 to 10mph wind. It is unstable - oscillating in a sort of figure 8 style with gradually increasing amplitude. It seems most stable where the harness line is attached in this video @4:18. I'll keep trying to find a stable hover leash system.

As for wing foiling, I do not plan to wingfoil until I am at a better level of windfoiling. I expect the wing will be more difficult than a sail.
The Duotone 2020 wing is due out in September. New colours seem to be one of the changes. Hopefully the 2019 design is the same as 2020.

The JP 7' foilSUP has arrived. EDIT: I tried to windSUP the 115L SUPfoil with twin 20cm fins and it didn't work. The board pushes water like an oil tanker and seems like it would need a lot of power to plane. It does SUP with the twin fins, but is much less roll stable than my 103L JP Slate SUP. I couldn't class the 115L as anything other than a foil board (so just a 2in1). I will try to wingSUP it in light winds. I will try windfoiling it when the conditions suit the 115 more than the 105. I expect to get the Glide XL wing (when available) to suit wingfoiling.



This might be a 4in1?


For actual wave riding on the foil, it will be interesting to see whether the sail or wing is the more suitable - or it may turn out that they are both better - but at different types of wave riding?
Last edited by ronnie on Sun Sep 01, 2019 8:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: SUP Foil surfing

Post by ronnie » Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:49 pm

I used the 4m wing with the 7' x 28" 115L JP SUP foil board today - but with twin fins instead of a foil. The inflation pressure is 6psi.
I found that fin combination had little roll stability for paddling, but once I got the wing in my hands, it was more stable than paddling it.

Conditions were 8 to 12 mph and shallow beach with extensive up to 1' shorebreak waves. Wind was cross-on and in the light wind, I could only sail kneeling on a broad reach. I felt I would have needed more wind to be able to get to my feet in those waves.

What I found worked was - carry the board upwind with the wing downwind. I have marked the boom at 30 cm from the front plastic brace, which is where I would probably fit a harness line. The back edge of my one hand was at the mark. I find the wing is a bit like a kite, and it may be useful to think of it like a kite in the kite wind window. I was a bit worried that there might be a risk of tennis elbow, but you generally don't need to torque the boom. If one side of the wing goes down, you just steer the nose to the other side and you can level it off again. So you don't need to grip the boom hard if there is enough wind - you just steer it from side to side and it will move to the side you steer it.
EDIT: 9 hours later and I am getting some symptoms of the tennis elbow I had got rid of 4 months ago- after having it for 5 months. That cleared up the following day, so I rested a day and went windfoiling after a day off.

To get on the board, I had the leash connected above the nose handle and to my left wrist. I held the handle to the starboard rail of the board and kneeled on the board facing forward. The wing makes it quite stable while getting to the kneeling position. If I tried to lift the wing with my right hand, it would tend to dig the trailing edge into the water, so what worked was to grab the leash point with my left hand and swing the wing up and across over my head and grab the boom with my right hand, and move my left hand to the boom. I was just kneeling, but the board was steady enough sailing along with the waves hitting it broadside - and this board is not by nature very stable in roll.
In a gusty 45 degree onshore and 1' shore-break, I found it was better to fly the wing with one hand while getting the board pointing into the waves with one hand and getting my knees onto the board. The wing is less unstable with the longer boom setting and more unstable with the shorter boom setting.

The dihedral shape looked to me like it should have potential to float on a leash, so I have tried to find a way where that happens - without success. I've tried clamping extensions onto the boom to extend it forward and down (hoping to improve flagging the wing), but those didn't seem to improve matters. I tried a very large, light, downward tailplane, which seemed to have very little effect. One thing that did seem to improve stability when holding the wing with one hand was clamping a handlebar extender to the boom, so maybe a curved boom like on the Kitewing would give a similar result. I've taken the extender off and will be using the wing as supplied. I will be windfoiling as a first preference and use the wing with the 115&fins in shallow water.
The F-One Swing seems to be able to float on the leash.
handlebarextenderS.jpg
It is difficult to get a steady wind to test in, and the difference is obvious when you move to eg. the water's edge. I suspect the wing does have potential for tennis elbow, but I get the impression that as you get more used to it, you can control it with much less input, and may even get to the stage that it's automatic and you don't even notice you are stabilising it.

I've tried prone paddling back against the wind towing the wing inflated, then found it easier with it deflated and rolled up.
The Duotone has the advantage of having an adjustable boom, so it seemed like it would be worth checking out attaching a paddle blade.
I wouldn't recommend using this one - which has a 28mm bore blade - it was too much work to detach it from the shaft. The Duotone boom is 26.5mm dia. A 27mm bore SUP blade would be ideal - to carry in a mesh backpack.
minow wallplug s.JPG
minowduotonemeshpuma s.JPG
Last edited by ronnie on Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:49 pm, edited 4 times in total.

ronnie
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Re: SUP Foil surfing

Post by ronnie » Sat Sep 14, 2019 11:08 am

Using a Kite Raceboard with an inflatable wing.


Good news for me, because I have a North LTD 90 litre 180 by 70cm. It will be interesting to hear how the box survives. I have hopes, because there was side force when course raced with a kite (albeit spread over 3 large fins). With a wing and strapless, with a 2100 sq cm wing (as used in this video) there may not be much side force, but there will be a lot of leverage from the wing pushing up levered toward the nose of the board.
A number of these boards have already been converted into windfoils to use with sails.


They should also work for wave foiling and may also work for paddling if you are light enough. I'll maybe stick a fin in mine and see if it has enough float for me (75kg) to paddle it. Based on my 103 litre, I think not.

Farnorthsurfer
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Re: SUP Foil surfing

Post by Farnorthsurfer » Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:24 pm

So a wing with the Hypernut 8’ 130 litres should work for 90kg sailor (Me)
Hope Sailrepair doesn’t read this after what I said about wings earlier in the year 8-)
You think they will be around for the long term?

ronnie
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Re: SUP Foil surfing

Post by ronnie » Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:33 pm

Farnorthsurfer wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:24 pm
So a wing with the Hypernut 8’ 130 litres should work for 90kg sailor (Me)
Hope Sailrepair doesn’t read this after what I said about wings earlier in the year 8-)
You think they will be around for the long term?
Usually when wing foiling, they are using the Hypernut 2in1. Based on what Gunnar says, with the 4in1, I'd expect that using a windfoil fuselage would help compensate for the 4in1 having the foil mounting further back. That should also stabilize the foil more in Yaw and Pitch.

From the feedback from people who are not connected to selling them, it does seem that they will stay around - but the wings seem to have limited applications (mostly connected to actual wave foiling) where they work better compared to windfoiling.


For me, I see it as something that might be an interesting add-on if I get to a good enough level to use a wing to try foiling using wave power on wind driven swell. It can be done without waves to ride, but in those cases, I think windfoiling would be better. I would expect to need to get the 1,964 sq cm XL Glide wing (which won't be available for months) to have a setup that was properly suitable for wing foiling.

EDIT (16/9): I (75kg naked) tried the North LTD kite race board 90L, 180 by 70cm with a large weed fin and paddling it in flat water. I lost a fair bit of skin to the deck grip - needed 5 large plasters afterward (wearing a shortie). It was possible for me to last 10 seconds kneeling and 5 seconds standing on first attempts. The board was almost completely underwater. I could fill in 2 deep tuttle recesses and put a thick deck pad on and if I got back down to 70kg, it would be practical to paddle and wing on it.

Reinforcing the board and adding a mast track etc., would add weight for the same buoyancy. My carbon Gofoil floats with 0.5 litre of excess buoyancy. I checked the NP Glide with large wings and Wind fuselage for floatability - it floats - just. Sealing the mast would help - as would the XL wing.

Another Update (17/9):
I put a fin at the front of a track on the JP 7' by 28" SUP and used the Duotone 4m wing in 5 to 10 knots on flat water. Limited space for a reach in a pond (50m). It's easy to sail and gybe with the wing, kneeling, and it will go upwind if there is enough wind. I would need stronger wind & more speed to tack it. Wing handling is to steer up and down with the front hand and hold most of the power with the rear hand (holding the wing as aft as comfortable). I stood up 3 times and it is easier to sail when standing than kneeling - its getting up that is the tricky part. I didn't try gybing while standing. This board is fairly unstable in the roll direction, so I had to keep board contact very near the centre of the board all the time.
Last edited by ronnie on Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ronnie
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Re: SUP Foil surfing

Post by ronnie » Wed Sep 18, 2019 11:38 am

A 3in1 foiling category? WINDfoil, SUPfoil, WINGfoil?

I'm finding that I can use my JP 7' by 28" 115 litre foil SUP board to SUP for exercise in flat water and have used a wing with it to do a slower version of windSUPing it - so it is at least useful for training with a wing (It doesn't windSUP well). It is better with a foil attached for just about everything.
This is the 6' 8" version with a SURF fuselage foil.


This is the 7' version with a WIND fuselage foil.



There is another board just announced from Zeeko which seems to be aimed at a similar list of abilities - a 3in1.

SUPfoiling the Zeeko 2in1 with no wind.

http://zeeko-kites.com/gb/windfoil-seri ... 12315.html

There is also a Fanatic 3in1 foil board for 2020. 6' 11" by 30" and 142 litres.

https://www.fanatic.com/sup/composite-b ... up-foil-ws
Last edited by ronnie on Fri Sep 20, 2019 11:21 am, edited 2 times in total.

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