New electric van

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BillG
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Re: New electric van

Post by BillG »

DavidA wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:57 pm Thanks Bill that article confirms my scepticism it states that the range of current vans is about 80miles so not really suitable for a windsurf van.
I guess if you live in Tiree, Penzance or Hayling island!
Distinctly Average
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Re: New electric van

Post by Distinctly Average »

DavidA wrote: Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:57 pm Thanks Bill that article confirms my scepticism it states that the range of current vans is about 80miles so not really suitable for a windsurf van.
Where does it say that in the article? I cannot find a statement mentioning such? A friend has a Renault ZE which does about 150 on a charge. It is an older model with the new version coming supposedly up to 300. Another chap I know has a converted transit from 1964. It now has a Tesla P100 drive and batteries and will about 300mils. It s frighteningly fast too.

Things are changing very rapidly. I was at the fully charged show this year and saw some incredibly interesting tech on the way.
Richarli
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Re: New electric van

Post by Richarli »

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Re: New electric van

Post by Distinctly Average »

I've read a lot of these reports and many are so full of holes it makes those with trypophobia vomit. Many use a worst case scenario for the production of electricity and every other step of the journey where EVs are concerned. At the same time they often ignore the same electricity used in the production of diesel. Many ignore the bigger problem in cities, that or NOX and particulates. Also please consider that Mercedes themselves have produced similar and they give a different set of figures for that model and engine, they also compared end to end their new EV which is a considerably larger car and according to them the new EV is massively better in CO2 emissions. Obviously, the Merc is a lot of marketing guff so again the figures need to be taken with a pinch of salt too. The point is, both sides of this argument will and do make their figures favourable for their own bias, usually because money is involved, or politics.

At then end of the day we are moving in the direction of EV replacing ICE. We will in just a few years have many cities around the planet where ICE cars will not be allowed to travel. The for of transport for us all will change, and hopefully away from individual car ownership for most. We make huge investments in cars only for them to sit on our driveways for around 95% of their life. That has to change, and if by having shared EV transport we can reduce the amount of vehicles on the road by even 30% then we are onto a winner. Doubly so is we can reduce deadly NOX and particulates at the same time. I fully understand people are defensive of gas burners, but once you have tried EV or even some hybrids you really do wonder why we still want all the noise, smell and hassle of suck, squeeze, bang, blow.
DavidA
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Re: New electric van

Post by DavidA »

Copied from the Parkers article, don't shoot the messenger!!
Electric vans – disadvantages

It isn’t all good news, of course.

There are also some significant disadvantages to electric vans – which at the very least need careful consideration before purchase, to make sure an e-van will suit your needs:

Range anxiety – this is the obvious big issue. While driving range is improving all the time, electric vans will not travel as far on a single charge as conventional vans will on a single tank of fuel. This not only means you will have to stop more often (and for longer; see below), it also makes them almost entirely impractical for long-distance use.
Charging time – this varies, depending on the power of the charging system, but even in the best-case scenario it will take longer to recharge an e-van than to refuel a regular van. DC rapid chargers can give you an 80% charge in around 40 minutes; home charging stations can complete a full recharge overnight; a normal three-pin plug may require an entire day.
Charging convenience – not only does it take a long time to charge an electric van, you’ve got to find somewhere to do the charging, too. Certainly not as convenient as filling up at a fuel station. Yet.
Purchase cost – electro-mobility technology is still in its infancy, and is also made from individually expensive components (the very material that the batteries are built out of, for example), so it’s no wonder electric vans are so expensive. They are usually cheaper to run, though (see above).
Weight – e-mobility tech is also heavy. The current crop of small electric vans are able to manage this through increased homologated gross vehicle weight (GVW), allowing them to retain the same level of payload capacity as non-electric equivalents. The government has attempted to counter this by increasing the GVW for electric vans from 3.5 tonnes to 4.25 tonnes to allow for the weight of the battery tech. More on this below.
Range variance – like all vans, you need to take the efficiency of an electric van as quoted by the manufacturer with a pinch of salt. Most claim they will go 106 miles between charges, but the reality is that you’ll be lucky to see more than 80 miles in practice. To be fair to them, every electric van manufacturer acknowledges this. Perhaps more significant, therefore, is just how dramatically that range can be impacted by other factors, including not only payload weight and driving style but also the weather conditions. EVs do not like the cold!
Batteries lose performance over time – an unavoidable reality of all electric vehicles is that their batteries deteriorate over time, meaning they gradually begin to hold less charge. This, however, is why most battery packs are covered by extended warranties (up to eight years in some cases), ensuring they see out the working life of the van.
Residual values – at the moment, uncertainty in the used market about electric vans means that they often lose value faster than their diesel counterparts. Renault's model of leasing the battery pack separately from the van hasn't helped matters here.
DavidA
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Re: New electric van

Post by DavidA »

I am not against EV I just think "the industry" hasn't gone about it the right way to make it more easily accessible. Some of this is due to world governments not approaching taxation or penalties the right way and uniformly. Of course this requires all countries to agree which given the US attitude to climate change is not going to be easy. Also young economies want what existing western economies have had for some time and have no incentive to change just look at the pollution in China.
cjsparkey
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Re: New electric van

Post by cjsparkey »

The manufacturers need to standardise more, not just charging formats but battery units as well.
Imagine if your EV had a standardised battery pack that could be disconnected and swapped out quickly just like power tools.
You could just stop in at a charging stop swap your depleted pack for a charged one and drive off, I guess the pack would need to be in the floor plan and dropped onto a hydraulic trolly or similar.
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Re: New electric van

Post by Distinctly Average »

DavidA wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2019 5:43 pm I am not against EV I just think "the industry" hasn't gone about it the right way to make it more easily accessible. Some of this is due to world governments not approaching taxation or penalties the right way and uniformly. Of course this requires all countries to agree which given the US attitude to climate change is not going to be easy. Also young economies want what existing western economies have had for some time and have no incentive to change just look at the pollution in China.
Thanks for the paste of the article. A lot of it I don’t agree with, or is out of date. In many cities now we are seeing electric vans taking the place of diesel because they save money for the operators. The range has massively increased in the last three years. I was chatting to a very senior chap from UPS at the fully charged show and he firmly believes that EV will save the company millions. Most of their vans do less than 140 miles a day, just lots of short journeys. So for them is really is easy to make the switch. As their drivers usually return to their depot once a day the vans can easily be topped up during lunch breaks for instance. Taxi drivers are really beginning to embrace the tech too. Dundee has taken EV on in quite a way with most of the licences taxis there being EV now. Dundee have installed a number of charging stations for the taxis to charge at, as well as anyone else. There, if you are a private owner charging is free, the taxis just pay a small fee. The local firm owners love the setup, and EVs. Servicing for instance is around 1/3rd of the cost their ICE fleet was costing.

Long distance in vans is also not too much of an issue now. Some are going over the 200 mile mark between charges. It takes a little more planning, but as the chap from UPS said, they are finding it a lot easier than they could have ever guessed.
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Re: New electric van

Post by Distinctly Average »

cjsparkey wrote: Tue Nov 26, 2019 6:57 pm The manufacturers need to standardise more, not just charging formats but battery units as well.
Imagine if your EV had a standardised battery pack that could be disconnected and swapped out quickly just like power tools.
You could just stop in at a charging stop swap your depleted pack for a charged one and drive off, I guess the pack would need to be in the floor plan and dropped onto a hydraulic trolly or similar.
Too complicated to swap packs, and really not needed. Most people just change the way they do things. The car is in the most part always topped up at home. So no need to go to a petrol station to charge. Many supermarkets also offer free charging while you shop, some shopping centres are starting this too. So when you go shopping you come out with a nicely topped up car for no effort or cost. Many places the parking is free too for electric cars while charging, Milton Keynes for example.

There are only a couple of charge formats and most cars accept them all. It is actually a good thing as it means different chargers can be used to suit the location. It help keep infrastructure costs down. Often it is just the charge rate that changes between sites.

The biggest problem we face in the UK is we have at least 9 different companies running charge stations. All have different ways of taking your money, all have different apps to find them. It is a pain in the arse. The only time these stations are needed are on long journeys as most of the time your car is charged at home. But she. You need them you have to often join their club, one you need their stupid charge token to be allowed to spend you money with them. Most will have a more expensive rate if you are not a member of their service, The government need to take a strong look at that here. Petrol stations would not get away with it so why should EV charging companies?

I am sure you have noticed I am quite passionate about seeing the end of diesel. A chap where I work lost his young son two years ago and it was attributed to damage caused by particulates. I live in a part of the country with supposedly clean air, but work in London. It is not just air pollution, but noise pollution we can drastically reduce. I honestly think we can be so much better off, but we will need to change the way we think about transport.
Smidge
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Re: New electric van

Post by Smidge »

Im equally passionate about it! The other things people dont get at first about electric vehicles are:

1) the more miles it does then the more cost effective it is (I guess I save roughly £1000 per 10,0000 miles), so EVs make no sense for low mileage owners, and enormous sense for ultra high mileage businesses like taxis and delivery vans (there are taxis Teslas in the US that have done 3 or 4 hundred thousand miles), provided the miles done per day and charging set up are manageable. To put some numbers on that, the car does about 3.75 miles per KwH on average. A night time KwH costs about 6p if you hunt around, so 1.6p per mile. 45 MPG, with diesel at 1.30 per litre = £5.92 per gallon, is 13.2p per mile. So saving is 11.5p per mile, for 10,000 miles its £1,150 in fuel savings, then theres no road tax and cheaper servicing too (see below).

2) They are pretty simple from an engineering perspective so cheap to service and (in theory) should last a very long time. Electric motors are pretty much the simplest and most reliable fast moving part ever invented, good for immense amounts of use over very long periods. There is no gear box to go wrong as no gears, no oil, no oil filter etc etc. Even the conventional brakes and pads dont get used much so wear out slowly as a lot of the slowing down is done via regen. 5 yrs on and service is still super simple and cheap - there is very little for them to do other than plug it into the computer to do a diagnostic review and check the brakes. A german guy has done 560,000 miles in his Tesla - still on the same motor.

3) and did i mention they are immense fun to drive....... like comparing a FSwave board to a beginner board

Only query is really about battery longevity/deterioration, but all the signs are that this is far, far better than people imagined, and getting better - only real and consistent problems have been in very hot parts of the US with batteries that dont have thermal management (eg older Leafs). And the technology is rapidly improving. Yes there are the occasional horror story of batteries that deteriorate horribly in months due to some manufacturing defect or other, but they get dealt with under warranty just like anything else (and warranties on batteries are very very long). You can have the same problem with masts. Also, if a car starts life with 275 miles of range, and that deteriorates by 15% by year 10, you still have a 235 mile range car - nothing much wrong with that - how many days do you drive more than 235 miles, and if you do then you will need a break, and in 10 years time there will be endless places to fast charge it during that break. Admittedly if you do do 560,000 miles in it then it will probably need a new battery pack on the way - nothings perfect.
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