Tighter bottom turn

The place to discuss technique.
maker
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:51 pm
Has liked: 44 times
Been liked: 12 times

Tighter bottom turn

Post by maker » Mon Feb 03, 2020 9:40 pm

I am slowly progressing my wave riding and need to tighten my bottom turn. Don;t want to sound rude but I've watched the videos and read the posts so know what to do, even think i am doing it, but I am not. I can gybe reasonably tight and plane out, and start of bottom turn is OK but I end up running parralel or even away from the wave. It;s like a gybe where you hang onto the sail too long and end up powering downwind instead of turning, Feet are well into straps but maybe I don't bank enough? perhaps too much rail? Any suggestions on typical faults that only take you half way round.

User avatar
Bouke/Witchcraft
Posts: 175
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:32 pm
Location: Fuerte
Has liked: 2 times
Been liked: 87 times
Contact:

Re: Tighter bottom turn

Post by Bouke/Witchcraft » Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:40 am

One thing could be is to be overpowered and needing too much loose leach, through the bottom turn loose leach starts to work against you and forces you to sheet out where you should be sheeting in to have the pull towards the wave.
Loose leach only works when the air flow enters from the mast. In the bottom turn this changes and towards the end of the turn or in on shore, the flow even enters from the leach and loose leach works against you.
But the best way to improve is to have someone video you to see what happens. That can be a great help to see what you are doing wrong and improve faster.
Last edited by Bouke/Witchcraft on Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
https://witchcraft.nu/. Boards, sails, masts, fins.

Ola H.
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2018 2:39 pm
Has liked: 21 times
Been liked: 43 times

Re: Tighter bottom turn

Post by Ola H. » Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:16 am

There are several complicated techniques to make a tight bottom turn and they are applied in different circumstances. But there is one, I think underestimated, way of practicing and that is hitting the foam, ie set things up so that the top turn is made on the wave when it is broken. This means you have to unload the board in the top turn and just habit kind of float around. You also _have to_ attack the foam kind of vertically while at the same time flip the nose up over the foam or you will get eaten. Practicing this, even on small waves, establishing a certain timing. And it is easy to find waves that are already broken, so you take the "timing the lip" phase out of the equation, and can concentrate the timing of boxy movements. Going in front of the foam and then redirect the board vertically towards the foam requires hard dedicated turning, which means leaning into the turn. But flipping the nose over the foam requires leaning back and then completely unloading the board. These two kind of contradictory movements are to happen in a very quick sequence and they need to become one smooth move. So in your head, the whole move should be thought of more in terms of "flip the nose up towards the foam and unload". But obviously there needs to be that turn phase before. But that turn need to be set up as a dynamic body movement thing from the start, which is why thinking of the end of the sequence is good.


Any good bottum turn, even when no foam or even lip is involved has one phase which mimics this foam climb technique.

maker
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:51 pm
Has liked: 44 times
Been liked: 12 times

Re: Tighter bottom turn

Post by maker » Tue Feb 04, 2020 10:02 am

Thanks guys, I can relate to my experience, particularly to probably been a bit overpowered.

Pad IoW
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 5:38 pm
Has liked: 14 times
Been liked: 12 times

Re: Tighter bottom turn

Post by Pad IoW » Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:47 pm

X shore, or X/on shore wind?

maker
Posts: 66
Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2018 10:51 pm
Has liked: 44 times
Been liked: 12 times

Re: Tighter bottom turn

Post by maker » Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:16 pm

Pad IoW wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:47 pm
X shore, or X/on shore wind?
Sometimes x shore and sometimes a bit x on. I often do not get beyond parrallel on either. Bizzarly best turns have been when a bit x on. maybe I expect it to be more difficult so try harder.

User avatar
Bouke/Witchcraft
Posts: 175
Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2018 9:32 pm
Location: Fuerte
Has liked: 2 times
Been liked: 87 times
Contact:

Re: Tighter bottom turn

Post by Bouke/Witchcraft » Wed Feb 05, 2020 10:54 am

maker wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:16 pm
Pad IoW wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:47 pm
X shore, or X/on shore wind?
Sometimes x shore and sometimes a bit x on. I often do not get beyond parrallel on either. Bizzarly best turns have been when a bit x on. maybe I expect it to be more difficult so try harder.
Cross on riding can be really good fun, if you master sailing clew first to the lip, you have more load in the sail and together with the lower speed, it is easy to whip the board around.
Here in the first picture, Will Ward is going very vertical with lots of load in the sail and you can see how the wind entering from the leach wants to disturb the sail shape, as with the wind reversed, with loose leach the load moves up to the top, causing creases in the boom area. The more loose leach, the worse this gets:
Image
If the load gets too much and you try to sheet in to release the load (also this works the other way around when the wind enters from the other side), you may end up getting back winded. That is also a clear sign of using a too big a sail and/or with too much loose leach. This is why for on shore wave sailing it is better to have closer steps in sail sizes (like 0.5m² steps) where as for all types of straight line sailing, you can get away with bigger steps in sizes (0.7 or even 1m²).
Image

Once you have whipped around, everything is fine again:
Image
https://witchcraft.nu/. Boards, sails, masts, fins.

User avatar
BTB
Posts: 136
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2018 9:07 am
Has liked: 92 times
Been liked: 24 times

Re: Tighter bottom turn

Post by BTB » Wed Feb 05, 2020 2:01 pm

maker wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 9:16 pm
Pad IoW wrote:
Tue Feb 04, 2020 8:47 pm
X shore, or X/on shore wind?
Sometimes x shore and sometimes a bit x on. I often do not get beyond parrallel on either. Bizzarly best turns have been when a bit x on. maybe I expect it to be more difficult so try harder.
Could this be a question of style, when messing about in small x on waves i find that if i really want to use the power in the wave I can't get much in the way of turns, a wiggle at best and in reality this is what surfers do to build speed on small waves. If i want to 'smack one' i have to have the speed to get out in front and crank round, this to me is not really wave riding as you are using the sail power to get out in front to give you the space to get a big turn in. I guess you need a wave of a certain size to be able to swing big carving turns on the face and get vertical on the top turn.

Jeroensurf
Posts: 36
Joined: Fri Oct 11, 2019 2:49 pm
Has liked: 11 times
Been liked: 24 times

Re: Tighter bottom turn

Post by Jeroensurf » Wed Feb 05, 2020 3:39 pm

Sure size helps, but all above you need speed. So a smaller faster more powerfull wave can sometimes easier to ride as a slow crumbling bigger one.
Its also what you are used to.
I live in Holland where fast waves are rare and we mainly sail something between dead onshore and perfect side on a good day, but mostly side on with not to gusty wind. In those conditions I,m never the best rider, but surely stand my ground and can front side go pretty vertical.
In October I sailed in Wales where it was very gusty off side off and for me that was a lot harder. The speed was higher and there was more drive in my sail as that i,m used to from side on. So its also about getting familar with the conditions and it took my a couple of sessions to adapt to that.

What helps for me to tighten turns is really attacking the turn.
Sometimes i,m all in peace and relaxed on the water, sailing a bit flowy and having heaps of fun being completely Zen, but that is/looks often rather lame.
If i,m hyped up and attacking the turn like I wanna destroy the lip i,m extra-gating my movements, push harder against the board, leaning in more and sit deep like a spring to release against the lip. That makes my turns tighter and go way faster for the lip and hit it with everything I got in one big explosion.....till you set up for the next turn and hit.
Its a great stress release to sail that way, but sometimes I just like to do the more lame flowing stuff as well, just being a happy camper on the water.:)

User avatar
BillG
Posts: 237
Joined: Fri Nov 09, 2018 3:32 pm
Has liked: 74 times
Been liked: 72 times

Re: Tighter bottom turn

Post by BillG » Wed Feb 05, 2020 4:01 pm

I recently started moving my back hand much further down the boom (I always felt I was moving my hand but it wasn't far enough!) as I go down into the bottom turn. Then sliding it forward as I go for the top turn. This has definitely improved things for me (I'm still crap, just not as bad!) as it seems to get my weight in the right place.

Post Reply