Board design by Ola H.

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Re: Board design by Ola H.

Post by Ruaraidh_K257 » Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:02 am

PK1111 wrote:
Thu Apr 18, 2019 5:06 pm
Bouke, you have to accuse me of bringing a personal view?
I’m 48, a professional and have been windsurfing for 30 years, so I think I can be sufficiently objective in my discussions on the internet.

As to your question, “what is all round? “, it appears you know the answer already, https://witchcraft.nu/boards/haka/ , and are I can only assume you are being obtuse and argumentative to prove a point that a custom manufacturer with 4 wave boards and myriad sizes, plus an option to go off template will always be superior to the offerings of a production manufacturer. I’m not interested in that debate.

So, back to Ola. These are interesting designs, and I greatly enjoyed using the Frugal, even as an all round board. So to what degree are these specialised vs all round?
Surely you can’t define an all round board. If you live in Maui, and sail Hookipa mainly, it would be a curvy quad with maybe not loads, but still some, rocker. A board that turns really well on big, perfect waves but still has a bit of planing power. Then if you live in Tenerife, for example, and sail cabezo and south beach primarily, you would want something super fast, that keeps speed really well on an onshore wave, etc. All round is obviously going to be different when you have different circles to go all round! ;)

But that said, all round is a term used by brands to describe a board that planes well, turns well on good waves but will also work on bad waves. So to a production brand, all round can be something concrete. But to a custom shaper like Bouke, I would imagine blanket terms like all round don’t apply the same way. Production brands I would assume do a lot of compromising in their designs (ie why Brawzinho has a Hookipa quiver and a Canaries quiver, all supposedly Goya Custom Quads but the former with less planing power and more turning capability, and the latter with a flatter rocker and good at
keeping speed on the wave, leaving the production Goya Quad to be a mix of both) but as Bouke is designing his on a case by case basis a lot of the time, he has the luxury of not having to compromise. Hence all round being a much more subjective term. Excuse me if I’ve just been rambling, but this is what I understand the term all round to mean! ;)


For me all round is something that gives me reasonable but not ideal performance in absolutely crap, light wind x onshore conditions, and fantastic performance once the waves get a bit better. But that’s not the same for everyone!
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Re: Board design by Ola H.

Post by Bouke/Witchcraft » Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:32 pm

Ruaraidh_K257 wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:02 am
But that said, all round is a term used by brands to describe a board that planes well, turns well on good waves but will also work on bad waves. So to a production brand, all round can be something concrete. But to a custom shaper like Bouke, I would imagine blanket terms like all round don’t apply the same way. Production brands I would assume do a lot of compromising in their designs (ie why Brawzinho has a Hookipa quiver and a Canaries quiver, all supposedly Goya Custom Quads but the former with less planing power and more turning capability, and the latter with a flatter rocker and good at
keeping speed on the wave, leaving the production Goya Quad to be a mix of both) but as Bouke is designing his on a case by case basis a lot of the time, he has the luxury of not having to compromise.
I don´t know where some people get these ideas about custom boards from, but you are completely wrong. Off course I have to compromise. Always for every one. Without a compromise you would need a board for sailing out, swap on the outside to another to sail in. Swap if the wind or waves go up or down or go on or off shore. Impossible. Like I said, my teamriders nor me have a special Hookipa/DTL set and an on shore set like some PWA riders have. We do everything with the same 1 or 2 boards. The PWA would be a lot more interesting for board development if riders were limited to 2 boards for the whole season or even 2 or 3 seasons. If they would need to swap, also due to board breaking, it would cost them points. Like in F1. Or like us or any end user.
99% of my custom board customers are "normal" customers who could have bought a production board as well. Less than 1% may be something out of the box. That can be because of their weight, medical reasons or they really want to cover some type of sailing that is uncommon. 2 years ago I made a 150L flex tail windsup for a customer who spends half the time here and always wants to go out when there are waves.

It´s just that with custom boards you can vary endlessly where to place the compromise, which is why any brand has different designs in the first place. That is no different between a custom or production board. It´s just you can fine tune the compromise better. And that is not just about the shape, also construction and graphics. There is a chance that any given production board is 100% spot on but that chance is very small. OTOH, with most brands, at worst it may be say 80%? Or anywhere in between or you simply buy more boards. But with a custom board the compromise can always be 100% or close, depending on how good a shaper is and how well he judges your needs. An argument often used against custom boards is that you don´t know what you are going to get. Which is often the same with production boards. Hands up for anyone who has tested a board before buying. Or for anyone who bought a board without testing and found it didn´t suit him. And off course we have many boards to test here and you may find people willing to let you have a go elsewhere so you get a pretty good idea and from there you (with me) can fine tune things, depending on your whole situation. I also give garantee on the performance of custom boards.
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Re: Board design by Ola H.

Post by Ruaraidh_K257 » Sun Apr 21, 2019 5:02 pm

Bouke/Witchcraft wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:32 pm
Ruaraidh_K257 wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 10:02 am
But that said, all round is a term used by brands to describe a board that planes well, turns well on good waves but will also work on bad waves. So to a production brand, all round can be something concrete. But to a custom shaper like Bouke, I would imagine blanket terms like all round don’t apply the same way. Production brands I would assume do a lot of compromising in their designs (ie why Brawzinho has a Hookipa quiver and a Canaries quiver, all supposedly Goya Custom Quads but the former with less planing power and more turning capability, and the latter with a flatter rocker and good at
keeping speed on the wave, leaving the production Goya Quad to be a mix of both) but as Bouke is designing his on a case by case basis a lot of the time, he has the luxury of not having to compromise.
I don´t know where some people get these ideas about custom boards from, but you are completely wrong. Off course I have to compromise. Always for every one. Without a compromise you would need a board for sailing out, swap on the outside to another to sail in. Swap if the wind or waves go up or down or go on or off shore. Impossible. Like I said, my teamriders nor me have a special Hookipa/DTL set and an on shore set like some PWA riders have. We do everything with the same 1 or 2 boards. The PWA would be a lot more interesting for board development if riders were limited to 2 boards for the whole season or even 2 or 3 seasons. If they would need to swap, also due to board breaking, it would cost them points. Like in F1. Or like us or any end user.
99% of my custom board customers are "normal" customers who could have bought a production board as well. Less than 1% may be something out of the box. That can be because of their weight, medical reasons or they really want to cover some type of sailing that is uncommon. 2 years ago I made a 150L flex tail windsup for a customer who spends half the time here and always wants to go out when there are waves.

It´s just that with custom boards you can vary endlessly where to place the compromise, which is why any brand has different designs in the first place. That is no different between a custom or production board. It´s just you can fine tune the compromise better. And that is not just about the shape, also construction and graphics. There is a chance that any given production board is 100% spot on but that chance is very small. OTOH, with most brands, at worst it may be say 80%? Or anywhere in between or you simply buy more boards. But with a custom board the compromise can always be 100% or close, depending on how good a shaper is and how well he judges your needs. An argument often used against custom boards is that you don´t know what you are going to get. Which is often the same with production boards. Hands up for anyone who has tested a board before buying. Or for anyone who bought a board without testing and found it didn´t suit him. And off course we have many boards to test here and you may find people willing to let you have a go elsewhere so you get a pretty good idea and from there you (with me) can fine tune things, depending on your whole situation. I also give garantee on the performance of custom boards.
I stand corrected! ;)
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Re: Board design by Ola H.

Post by PK1111 » Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:50 pm

Bouke/Witchcraft wrote:
Sat Apr 20, 2019 9:02 pm
PK1111 wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:33 pm
Bouke, I respect your position as a custom board manufacturer, and ability to build to a clients request, but the main brands can’t do that.
It seems like your view of what we do is limited. I am also a "professional", shaping boards since 1985, since 1994 professionally on Fuerteventura, windsurfing since 40 years.
Considering I have been a past customer of yours, I would suggest that I absolutely understand what you do and how you operate. I’ve admired many aspects of your operation over the years and am especially supportive of small batch, high quality manufacturing close to the consumer market.

Initially you argued that there was no such thing as “all round” but your own web site clearly states otherwise.
Your posts are just coming across as defensive of your model, rather than sticking to the topic, and discussing how relevant these more radical designs (and maybe yours) are to regular riders and conditions.

I’m pressing this as Simmer do have recent form in producing very dedicated models, especially the Fly, which changed dramatically between the years, to the point where some years are considered good, and some, dogs that should be avoided.
I don’t know who the shapers were and cast no aspersions, preferring to have a straight conversation about the potential future.

These designs may be exciting and have a wide potential market.
I encourage that experimentation.
But specialist boards should be clearly identified as such and not marketed as all round boards.

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Re: Board design by Ola H.

Post by socialsailor » Mon Apr 22, 2019 1:12 am

Bouke/Witchcraft wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:32 pm
Hands up for anyone who has tested a board before buying. Or for anyone who bought a board without testing and found it didn't suit him.
Yes, I've done both and been burned. My board buying experiences have included:
-I bought a board based on past good experiences with a brand, and their marketing blurb on the board I bought, and hated the board.
-I have also rented a board in Maui, loved it and ordered one. But it sucked back home. Testing a board before buying would be great, but only if testing in conditions similar to where the board will be sailed.

I have however bought a board based on forum user reviews and recommendations and loved the board.

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Re: Board design by Ola H.

Post by Bouke/Witchcraft » Mon Apr 22, 2019 9:38 am

PK1111 wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:50 pm
But specialist boards should be clearly identified as such and not marketed as all round boards.
I often watch the promo videos of brands with amusement. Just watch the Fanatic promo videos of their quad on youtube from the various years, knowing that these boards also changed dramatically over the years. But this also applies to other brands.
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Re: Board design by Ola H.

Post by Lostboy » Tue Apr 23, 2019 7:45 am

Bouke/Witchcraft wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 1:32 pm
Hands up for anyone who has tested a board before buying. Or for anyone who bought a board without testing and found it didn´t suit him. And off course we have many boards to test here and you may find people willing to let you have a go elsewhere so you get a pretty good idea and from there you (with me) can fine tune things, depending on your whole situation. I also give garantee on the performance of custom boards.

Yep, done both. Way more difficult to do nowadays with distribution and retail dying on it's arse - and I haven't wanted to deviate from my current boards for a few years now. Always interesting to sail demo kit - it astounded me how much of it differed from the stuff written online and in magazines by "independent" testers and how irrelevant their comments were for someone my size that sailed in the variety of locations that I sail in.

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Re: Board design by Ola H.

Post by Ola H. » Fri Apr 26, 2019 7:55 am

Rasmus wrote:
Thu Apr 11, 2019 12:29 pm
Hello,

i do not understand why you try to make out of a non functional surfboard and fin setup (Twinfins) a functional sailboard, sorry makes no sense.

This surfboard in this video is a piece of shit, as all the shapes by Machado are too. Because someone was once a worldclass surfer does not mean he knows anything about shaping. The only exception is someone like Simon Anderson who made his own surfboards for competion, because that is the proving ground and he proved his boards as you also know, not a surfvideo with not riding the same waves with different material, that one can compare the performance of different shapes.

Why not try to make state of the art surfboards into a high performing sailboard?

Why not use an Cabianca or JS-Shape as a starting point, of course with functioning fin setups like thruster or quad?

You did understand that you have to stand back on the tail to make a sailboard turn tight, as you do in surfing, making wider tails, but you still use short nose designs and wide point forward outlines , like a 70´s surfboard when after an atempt by Kelly Slater in 2003- 05 no ONE uses this concept, because it is WRONG. If you have a board that should perform an off the lip or generally hits sections you want to have a nose that cuts threw uncoming water/whitewater and displaced it, and this a pointed nose.

When i read how you get designideas and from whom, i really get disapointed!!
In fact, I did quite recently try some even more contemporary shortboard style outlines, alá the Pyzel ghost. While the resulting board has its moments, it also made it rather clear why windsurf boards typically are made with the wide point forward and a wider mid front section which creates more support from the outline up front. The Ghost style outline simply became very twitchy as a windsurf board. After all, when windsurfing you are relatively speaking standing further back on the board and you have the mast as a third connection to the board. Then, you often go at quite high speeds too. It turns out a bit more outline up front simply helps. It is in fact also quite a lot easier to push through white water when going vert on a windsurfer because the bigger and heavier equipment has a lot more momentum. That said, what I (and others) did with my shapes over the years is to shorten the front section to make the board fit in tighter places and to to give white water that tries to push the nose around less leverage. This has worked well for me and most of my boards are now rather short for windsurfers.

So in essence, you can't really take a surf board and make it into a windsurf board. This is not what I'm doing with the Machado Seaside either, or what I did with Torren Martyns twin. I just looked and the lines the drew and some of the flow and speed that could carry relatively effortlessly and took some inspiration from how certain shape elements of their boards allowed that. Then I adapted those elements into already working windsurf designs. That is more or less the extent to which I use surfboards and surfing as inspiration

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Re: Board design by Ola H.

Post by Ola H. » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:11 am

PK1111 wrote:
Wed Apr 17, 2019 5:33 pm


So this question is aimed at Ola. How all round are these designs in real world conditions and average sailors looking for one wave board?
I think the stubbies and compact boards are just as all round as more classic shapes. It's more about adapting the board to the rider and the style. The same board that I love for knee high wave sailing in Sweden is the one that I had perhaps the most fun on at overhead Hookipa. A board becomes all round when it fits YOU.

I'd say that also production stubbies like our Cortex is very, very all round assuming the sailor has a reasonable technique and likes the types of vertical style turns that such aboard offers. If you have a less precise technique, a Quantum will be more allround. But a Quantum will be much less allround for the cortex type sailor because there will be too many types of conditions where it will not turn in an exciting enough manner. Similarly, our current FLy is super allround too. More exciting that the Quantum but still oriented towards more drawn out lines than the Cortex. All of these boards have early planing enough and control enough to work in all winds and wave sizes.

For one given sailor it may still make sense to fx have a big Cortex for shitty waves and light wind and a Fly as a performance board, but that is more fine tuning. In general there will be one style of board that you will like the best and that one will more or less cover all type of sailing you will meet.

Personanally I experiment a fair bit with more extremt types of boards made primarily for doing certain things in particular conditions, but in the end even these boards tend to be pretty all round. I don't have any boards in my quiver that I would feel handicapped with in _any_ spot (except for volume issues with some smaller boards for float and ride... but as long as I'm at all moving, even my small boards are in fact quite effective).

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Re: Board design by Ola H.

Post by Bouke/Witchcraft » Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:23 am

PK1111 wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:50 pm

Initially you argued that there was no such thing as “all round” but your own web site clearly states otherwise.
Your posts are just coming across as defensive of your model, rather than sticking to the topic, and discussing how relevant these more radical designs (and maybe yours) are to regular riders and conditions.
I think you answered your question here yourself. Radical designs are not really meant for regular riders and conditions. But my argument was that there still are a wide variety of regular riders. You could also call B&J regular sailing. Or on shore wave sailing with actual wave riding both back and front side is still another level, but hard to do with a radical board.
PK1111 wrote:
Sun Apr 21, 2019 6:50 pm

I’m pressing this as Simmer do have recent form in producing very dedicated models, especially the Fly, which changed dramatically between the years, to the point where some years are considered good, and some, dogs that should be avoided.
I don’t know who the shapers were and cast no aspersions, preferring to have a straight conversation about the potential future.

These designs may be exciting and have a wide potential market.
I encourage that experimentation.
But specialist boards should be clearly identified as such and not marketed as all round boards.
I don´t know all the different shapes of the Fly but I do know they also have the Quantum. The Fly is marketed as their ground swell design and the Quantum as their all round wave board, aimed more for wind swell conditions. So possibly, if a regular rider uses a Fly in regular conditions, he may be struggling.
In a similar manner we have the Wave and the Haka and other wave biased brands have similar ranges. The Wave V4 was however still well useable in wind swell conditions and the Haka V1 more an easier going wave board with a wide wind range. The Haka ST became tuned up with a short tail, which made it faster and looser but also a touch more tecnical, and with that the Wave V5 could be more ground swell orientated as there was a demand for that. A pretty skilled sailor could still use a V5 in wind swell conditions but I certainly would not recommend it to everyone. There is still some overlap between the ranges but also nicely spread over the various types of regular sailors and conditions.
In another case, the Goya quad for example was always quite an all round wave board, like the Haka ST or Quantum. But last year they made the quad a lot narrower. I had a customer who had a custom Witchcraft Wave 81 from 2014 with 572 width and a 2018 Goya Quad 89 with 563mm width. He said the 81 felt bigger than the 89, which he got for light wind float n ride in Galicia but he was struggling with that even in windier conditions. He now got a Haka ST 86 with 580 width.
Last edited by Bouke/Witchcraft on Fri Apr 26, 2019 8:25 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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