‘Drive’

Chat about stuff that doesn't fall into the other categories here.
JB:)
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Re: ‘Drive’

Post by JB:) » Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:26 am

Phwarr. :shock: :mrgreen: I want to do those kinda turns!

Happily make my technique sloppy if that is the result!

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Re: ‘Drive’

Post by Ruaraidh_K257 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:40 pm

I take it the flex tail turns are ones that give the sailors much more turny top turns?

I think lowering their boom by a good inch or so would so the same thing... they look like they’re riding with slalom settings!
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Bouke/Witchcraft
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Re: ‘Drive’

Post by Bouke/Witchcraft » Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:47 pm

Ruaraidh_K257 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:40 pm
I take it the flex tail turns are ones that give the sailors much more turny top turns?
Yep.
Ruaraidh_K257 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:40 pm
I think lowering their boom by a good inch or so would so the same thing... they look like they’re riding with slalom settings!
These were sails with the boom cut out quite low, later Ezzy made them higher on my request but also if you are underpowered, you´d be struggling to keep speed with the boom low. Those guys with the boom low are never getting any waves in these conditions as there is always someone else on it before them. And once you are going DTL, the apparent wind is practically zero so there is no power in the sail to give mast foot pressure to keep going if you can´t put some weight on the boom. With zero apparent wind there is no point in putting up a bigger sail either. In this kind of conditions you really notice "drive".
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K-215
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Re: ‘Drive’

Post by K-215 » Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:19 pm

GraemeF wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:46 pm
OMG don't you just miss basher sometimes, I'd love to have seen his reaction to that illustration, meanwhile I think I'll just reach for that can of BS repellant, now where did I put it, it's been a while since I've had such a bubble bath...


Think I'll get my old Challenge Flex out, that's in the Drive.. :lol:
Like all short fat(ish), slightly flexible things, nobody misses either.

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Re: ‘Drive’

Post by GraemeF » Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:45 pm

Bouke/Witchcraft wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:49 pm
But were you not the one trying to sell these things to people anyway?
Yep, 1987 from memory and we sold 400 that year, have you sold 400 yet? I doubt it. But it wasn't our concept, that was Mike Tinkler, of Tinkler tail fame, which from memory was more along the lines of your flextail, which I've no doubt works well enough, I don't think that was what I had issue with, more likely the way 'drive' was somehow ascribed to it, which we both know is BS, however, it's not your mother tongue so I'll just smile for now and leave you to ruminate on the meaning of 'drive' which has nothing to do with a tail flexing, if anything a tail that flexes depowers drive.

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Re: ‘Drive’

Post by Bouke/Witchcraft » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:31 am

GraemeF wrote:
Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:45 pm
Yep, 1987 from memory and we sold 400 that year, have you sold 400 yet? I doubt it. But it wasn't our concept, that was Mike Tinkler, of Tinkler tail fame, which from memory was more along the lines of your flextail, which I've no doubt works well enough, I don't think that was what I had issue with, more likely the way 'drive' was somehow ascribed to it, which we both know is BS, however, it's not your mother tongue so I'll just smile for now and leave you to ruminate on the meaning of 'drive' which has nothing to do with a tail flexing, if anything a tail that flexes depowers drive.
400? You should be deeply ashamed of yourself ripping off 400 people. That is what you call selling BS! How many hours of enjoyable sailing did those 400 customers get out of their investments? 10 hours each? Probably not even that. But surely you just hide behind the Mistral brand and development team. And you still have a big mouth, you even seem to be proud of it. You should have been a politician.

I don´t know how many I have sold, Probably 40-50 over the last 9 years. Probably 70% is for returning customers. How many returning customers did you have for your Challenge Flex? Not counting the ones who would have liked to hit you on the head with it. Maybe it is because of your (and your 400 customers) experiences with the Challenge Flex or Tinkler tail that you think it does not give drive or maybe it is beyond your understandings of physics but it works exactly like in that diagram. Water (or air) can only apply a force to a surface perpendicular to the plane of that surface, no matter which language. So if there is water pressure on the tail causing it to bend up, that force is pointing forward. The difference between my concept and the Tinkler tail is that my flex tail can only bend in one direction. I made it impossible to bend in another direction by creating "hinges". The reason why I hadn´t thought of that before is that it does not give a 100% fluent curve when it flexes. But in the end it is more important how it flexes than that it needs to be 100% fluent. Sails are far from 100% fluent either with the battens but they need battens.
I also made it impossible to bend beyond a certain point. The tail does what it needs to do automatically in each situation. They drive through a turn. They make wave riding easier. You can "buy" wave riding skill. I made some Tinkler tails back in the 90´s, even with the fin in the fixed part of the board, you got weird effects. One turn would go perfect, the next the board would not turn at all, it just went straight or tripped. It wasn´t until 12-14 years later I figured out what the problem was because in theory it should work. Another experiment that we did was when a flex tail broke off, I cut it off clean and we sailed it like that to see what would happen. Basically like this it was like the Stubbies nowadays. It turned as good but it was much more sensitive as there was no "stop" when you pushed too hard, the tail would just break out and you would not get that boost through the turn. Also in the bottom turn at lower speeds, it would stall sooner.
There are downsides as well though. They cost more, there are some limits to the durability (though with most customers they hold up fine 6-8 years), they work best in light wind side shore conditions with nice waves (albeit some have them as their medium or high wind board as well) and there is a split second delay in reaction.
Last edited by Bouke/Witchcraft on Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ‘Drive’

Post by Ruaraidh_K257 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:37 am

This is getting a little heated, guys... as entertaining as anoraky windsurf arguments are you both need to cool the beans :D
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Re: ‘Drive’

Post by Ruaraidh_K257 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:39 am

Bouke/Witchcraft wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:47 pm
Ruaraidh_K257 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:40 pm
I take it the flex tail turns are ones that give the sailors much more turny top turns?
Yep.
Ruaraidh_K257 wrote:
Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:40 pm
I think lowering their boom by a good inch or so would so the same thing... they look like they’re riding with slalom settings!
These were sails with the boom cut out quite low, later Ezzy made them higher on my request but also if you are underpowered, you´d be struggling to keep speed with the boom low. Those guys with the boom low are never getting any waves in these conditions as there is always someone else on it before them. And once you are going DTL, the apparent wind is practically zero so there is no power in the sail to give mast foot pressure to keep going if you can´t put some weight on the boom. With zero apparent wind there is no point in putting up a bigger sail either. In this kind of conditions you really notice "drive".
Gotcha, I think. I normally sail with a low boom even for the most marginal of down the line conditions... but that said I’m 62kg and have an 83l for light winds... which is fast enough on any wave!
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Bouke/Witchcraft
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Re: ‘Drive’

Post by Bouke/Witchcraft » Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:57 am

Ruaraidh_K257 wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:37 am
This is getting a little heated, guys... as entertaining as anoraky windsurf arguments are you both need to cool the beans :D
Nah, Grumpfy is loving stuff like this :lol: He likes to provoke and when you dish out you have to be able to receive as well.
Last edited by Bouke/Witchcraft on Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: ‘Drive’

Post by Bouke/Witchcraft » Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 am

Ruaraidh_K257 wrote:
Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:39 am
Gotcha, I think. I normally sail with a low boom even for the most marginal of down the line conditions... but that said I’m 62kg and have an 83l for light winds... which is fast enough on any wave!
That is huge, fine for soft sloppy waves but pretty big to put it on the rail in a hard carving bottom turn. That would be like me using a 112L. I have a 105 flex tail as well but hardly ever use it. There probably aren´t that many people where you sail either. Some spots here can get crowded at peak hours but that is because it is good. You can also go to other spots or sail at different times when you are on holiday. I pick my sail size and boom highth also taking into account how many people there are. Ben Severne was out a few days ago on a huge sail.
Nowadays we use the boom somewhat lower again but our sails have improved since then. Yannick Anton is your weight and he uses the boom around 5cm from the bottom.
There is one guy in that video who is a short ass and still had his boom high though, I told him many times he was using his boom too high. Probably suffering from the Grumpf syndrom.

Another local is 1,93 and used to have to put his extension 7cm longer to be able to have his boom at the right highth. That was what convinced Ezzy to raise the cut out.
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