Covid vaccine

Chat about stuff that doesn't fall into the other categories here.
James.blonde
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Re: Covid vaccine

Post by James.blonde »

BTB.
As my post stated, this was on Reuters news. Probably the world's leading news agency.
If you think this is internet bull then its up to you. They say trust the science and its a fact that countries have stopped giving it to under 55s.
It doesn't make BBC evening news. Just Lenny Henry saying , get the jab its safe. Their is something funny about a comedian telling you its safe and Germany and Canada saying its not. Believe the comedian or nations scientists.
It is a personal choice still. I haven't been abroad for 11 years now so a few more won't worry me.
Jeroensurf
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Re: Covid vaccine

Post by Jeroensurf »

From a medical point of of view (I am an ICU nurse who works at the occ/ in-company health services but went back to the hospital when there was a shortage in qualified ICU personal), the first 2 waves there was lots of trombose with covid patients.
Unfortunately we found that out pretty late because nobody expected that and with an unknown disease its hard to know what your dealing with and looking for when over runed by way more patients as we could handle by normal standards. Later on we started giving anticoagulantia to prevent that, but bloodcloth is still an serious issue by the people who don,t come to the hospital and stay at home.

I can imagine that you might get an situation that with the Astra Zenica you wil get a shot of Nadro/fraxiparine for a couple of days.
If that all its takes I,m happy to take the shot.
To put the side effects in context, have a look at the side effects of Paracetamol that everybody can buy and know that 1off each 1000 users may suffer from liver problems, hypotensia and depression or acute heart-failure as an reaction on antibiotics and 1 out of 100.000 on side effects is a killer deal
to me.
Reason to give a certain age an specific vaccination has al to do with that vaccine A works better on some ages as vaccine B.

Vaccination pasport.
I don,t know about the UK, but there are plenty of countries where you need to take vaccination before you can travel to it.
Covid might become on of them. I wonder if I can come to the UK in sept/oct for my Gwithian pilgimage without a quarantine period.
PhilN
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Re: Covid vaccine

Post by PhilN »

Hazzabee wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:50 am
James.blonde wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:38 am Germany and Canada have now stopped giving astrazenica to under 60s. Due to 1 in 100 000 risks of bloodclots especially in women. All over reliable news sources fir last 24 hours. Rueters ect. Doesn't make BBC news at all. The original stats for Europe said 1 in 1 mil but this has now changed.
They just keep saying get jabbed its safe.
Please look into this for yourself and weigh up your personal risks to this virus. 50% of people won't have any symptoms at all, 99 % of seriously ill have now been jabbed.

Now waiting for backlash. ;)
This is the (pre-print) study which has raised the alarm.
https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-362354/v1
The authors disclose conflicts of interest, including personal fees from Pfizer
From what I can make out from that, 9 patients had a clotting issue who had recently been jabbed, 4-16 days previously. It doesnt report how many patients had received the vaccine, but the BBC said 2.7m. They only tested 4 patient's serum (plasma) out of the 9. Is that conclusive?
Someone in the comments said what about the results of people who had a similar clot who hadn't had the vaccine. How does their samples compare? Also, in the Results it mentions "None of 20 sera from control individuals who were vaccinated by AZD1222 vaccine caused platelet activation." 20. Twenty. Hardly the basis for proper research on something which rarely happens.

When the clotting issue broke (before March 17th when I got my 1st jab) I did the sums at the time it was reported and it was only something like 1 in 800,000. I wondered at the time what the usual number of clotting issues were. This figure hasn't been reported anywhere from what I've read, so what is 'normal'? From what I have read, no media has bothered to report the 'normal' numbers of clots like these. Anyone else know?
Soon after the news broke, doctors on TV said its very low risk, and people are more likely to get clotting taking some birth control pills or getting pregnant. I googled that and your chance increases by 0.3-1% over 10 years. Still rare. I remembered when deep vein thrombosis became a 'thing' when people started travelling more on cheaper long distance flights.

I didnt worry about the low risk as I'd rather not catch CV19. But then I'm a 59 year old bloke not a 36 year old women.

ps Thanks for posting the link Hazzabee.
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TwoFish
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Re: Covid vaccine

Post by TwoFish »

rod wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 11:49 am The default mode of coercion that is currently being used, whether to curb protests, use vaccine passports, lock people down who are at low risk is straight out of China's play book.
I wouldn't go quite that far, but there does seem to be more than a whiff of Chinese authoritarianism about it all. And just like the Chinese public, a worrying proportion of our population seem to approve (cowardly little shits). I've been taking their names ;-) .

The really interesting test will be what happens as the pandemic dies away. I think Boris's natural instincts are fairly libertarian (and perhaps libertine ;-) ). However politicians tend to find authoritarianism addictive. Will he carry on with a sort of diluted version of the appalling assualts on liberty we've suffered (some through necessity) during the pandemic, or will he swing the pendulum back the other way?
PhilN
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Re: Covid vaccine

Post by PhilN »

James.blonde wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 12:26 pm BTB.
As my post stated, this was on Reuters news. Probably the world's leading news agency.
If you think this is internet bull then its up to you. They say trust the science and its a fact that countries have stopped giving it to under 55s.
It doesn't make BBC evening news. Just Lenny Henry saying , get the jab its safe. Their is something funny about a comedian telling you its safe and Germany and Canada saying its not. Believe the comedian or nations scientists.
It is a personal choice still. I haven't been abroad for 11 years now so a few more won't worry me.
I'd rather believe the UKMA & EMA's scientists.
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rod
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Re: Covid vaccine

Post by rod »

Jeroensurf wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:11 pm I don,t know about the UK, but there are plenty of countries where you need to take vaccination before you can travel to it.
I was more thinking of domestic use, going to the swimming pool, pub etc
Distinctly Average
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Re: Covid vaccine

Post by Distinctly Average »

PhilN wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 1:31 pm
Hazzabee wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 8:50 am
James.blonde wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:38 am Germany and Canada have now stopped giving astrazenica to under 60s. Due to 1 in 100 000 risks of bloodclots especially in women. All over reliable news sources fir last 24 hours. Rueters ect. Doesn't make BBC news at all. The original stats for Europe said 1 in 1 mil but this has now changed.
They just keep saying get jabbed its safe.
Please look into this for yourself and weigh up your personal risks to this virus. 50% of people won't have any symptoms at all, 99 % of seriously ill have now been jabbed.

Now waiting for backlash. ;)
This is the (pre-print) study which has raised the alarm.
https://www.researchsquare.com/article/rs-362354/v1
The authors disclose conflicts of interest, including personal fees from Pfizer
From what I can make out from that, 9 patients had a clotting issue who had recently been jabbed, 4-16 days previously. It doesnt report how many patients had received the vaccine, but the BBC said 2.7m. They only tested 4 patient's serum (plasma) out of the 9. Is that conclusive?
Someone in the comments said what about the results of people who had a similar clot who hadn't had the vaccine. How does their samples compare? Also, in the Results it mentions "None of 20 sera from control individuals who were vaccinated by AZD1222 vaccine caused platelet activation." 20. Twenty. Hardly the basis for proper research on something which rarely happens.

When the clotting issue broke (before March 17th when I got my 1st jab) I did the sums at the time it was reported and it was only something like 1 in 800,000. I wondered at the time what the usual number of clotting issues were. This figure hasn't been reported anywhere from what I've read, so what is 'normal'? From what I have read, no media has bothered to report the 'normal' numbers of clots like these. Anyone else know?
Soon after the news broke, doctors on TV said its very low risk, and people are more likely to get clotting taking some birth control pills or getting pregnant. I googled that and your chance increases by 0.3-1% over 10 years. Still rare. I remembered when deep vein thrombosis became a 'thing' when people started travelling more on cheaper long distance flights.

I didnt worry about the low risk as I'd rather not catch CV19. But then I'm a 59 year old bloke not a 36 year old women.

ps Thanks for posting the link Hazzabee.
The figures were published but I cannot give you the link as they are on a subscription medical site. The numbers are actually lower that in the non-vaccinated population. What is also interesting to feast was the percentage of people who had the Pfizer vaccine and had blood clots in the same period afterwards was slightly higher, but still lower than the population average. The fear is a different type of blood clot, a specific reaction that is rare. So on one hand there seems to be a general reduction in blood clots, on the other this rare form has been noticed. I fear there is a lot of political pressure going on towards AZ more than anything. Then countries like Canada and Germany need to react just in case. Once their respective bodies do their job it will be interesting to see what the outcome is. We will probably see a resumption of the use of this vaccine. I for one was very happy to have my first dose a few weeks ago.
PhilN
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Re: Covid vaccine

Post by PhilN »

Distinctly Average wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:25 pm The numbers are actually lower that in the non-vaccinated population. What is also interesting to feast was the percentage of people who had the Pfizer vaccine and had blood clots in the same period afterwards was slightly higher, but still lower than the population average. The fear is a different type of blood clot, a specific reaction that is rare. So on one hand there seems to be a general reduction in blood clots, on the other this rare form has been noticed.
As a non medical person, why would the AZ & Pfizer vaccines lower the occurrence of blood clots? Is there anything in the jab which is known to thin blood? I did a quick google of the ingredients and nothing came up.
So is it just chance? Clotting is lower at the moment because thats the way the dice have rolled?

Vica versa the rarer condition. Is that just chance that its been noticed more? Because people are looking out for it now?

I've no idea, but hopefully in a years time we will have a clearer picture.

Meanwhile the EMA have reintegrated their point of view.

https://www.reuters.com/business/health ... 021-03-31/

https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/astra ... -continues
Distinctly Average
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Re: Covid vaccine

Post by Distinctly Average »

PhilN wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 7:07 pm
Distinctly Average wrote: Wed Mar 31, 2021 6:25 pm The numbers are actually lower that in the non-vaccinated population. What is also interesting to feast was the percentage of people who had the Pfizer vaccine and had blood clots in the same period afterwards was slightly higher, but still lower than the population average. The fear is a different type of blood clot, a specific reaction that is rare. So on one hand there seems to be a general reduction in blood clots, on the other this rare form has been noticed.
As a non medical person, why would the AZ & Pfizer vaccines lower the occurrence of blood clots? Is there anything in the jab which is known to thin blood? I did a quick google of the ingredients and nothing came up.
So is it just chance? Clotting is lower at the moment because thats the way the dice have rolled?

Vica versa the rarer condition. Is that just chance that its been noticed more? Because people are looking out for it now?

I've no idea, but hopefully in a years time we will have a clearer picture.

Meanwhile the EMA have reintegrated their point of view.

https://www.reuters.com/business/health ... 021-03-31/

https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/astra ... -continues
Nobody seems to have the answers to the question as to why normal rates of clots have been lower. There seem to be plenty of theories including coincidence, demographics, biological etc but nothing appears to have been proven yet, or at least nothing widely published. I would bet there is a metric butt ton of work going into researching it. What is clear is that Covid is an absolute bitch of a disease that nobody really understands. I would rather be vaccinated than end up with any of the effects of that virus.
James.blonde
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Re: Covid vaccine

Post by James.blonde »

BBC have now put a storey on its main news page regarding this issue. So it would appear that's its not just mumbo jumbo I was making up, that some blinkered people would have you believe. Keep your eyes open to get a balanced argument
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